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Old Wed Jul 08, 2020, 04:10pm
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Team control throwin. Foul purposes only

Can someone please post the interp/Poe where NFHS made clear TC is only for foul purposes. A cite will do. Thx much
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Old Wed Jul 08, 2020, 04:46pm
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Lol here we go again...

https://www.templebasketballofficial...%202017-18.pdf

See page 209
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Old Wed Jul 08, 2020, 04:46pm
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Team Control Foul ...

Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18

Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.
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Old Wed Jul 08, 2020, 05:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Lol here we go again...

https://www.templebasketballofficial...%202017-18.pdf

See page 209
Thx for the cite. Not going through it again. Have to speak to some folks over weekend and need to show them this... It should be in book but it isn’t.. as you know. I’ve been explaining TC throwin v inbounds TC for years. Just lost track of the Poe.. thx again..

Last edited by BigCat; Wed Jul 08, 2020 at 05:12pm.
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Old Wed Jul 08, 2020, 05:45pm
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18

Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.
Thx Billy. Hope u r well.
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Old Wed Jul 08, 2020, 09:17pm
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Thx for the cite. Not going through it again. Have to speak to some folks over weekend and need to show them this... It should be in book but it isnt.. as you know. Ive been explaining TC throwin v inbounds TC for years. Just lost track of the Poe.. thx again..
Um...actually it is in the book. You clearly didn't look hard enough. I gave you the page number to the exact same thing Billy posted.
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Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 02:50am
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Um...actually it is in the book. You clearly didn't look hard enough. I gave you the page number to the exact same thing Billy posted.
I think you know what he meant...that it is not permanently placed in the rule itself. If you don't happen to have that year's book with the POE or one of the other few historical publications, there would be no way to know.
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Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 08:23am
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Contact Above The Shoulders ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If you don't happen to have that year's book with the POE or one of the other few historical publications, there would be no way to know.
Just like the 2012-13 Contact Above The Shoulders Points Of Emphasis.

Stupid NFHS.
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Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 08:29am
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Annual Interpretations ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18: Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.
This Point of Emphasis generated a ton of interpretations in 2017-18:

SITUATION 3: Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the teams frontcourt. A1s throw-in is deflected by B1 who is applying direct pressure on A1. A2 jumps from the teams frontcourt, catches the ball
in the air and lands in the backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team A. The throw-in ends when it is legally touched by B1. When A2 gains possession/control in the air, he/she has frontcourt status. A backcourt violation has occurred when A2 lands in the backcourt. (9-9-1, 9-9-3)

SITUATION 4: Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the teams backcourt (Team Bs frontcourt). A1s throw-in is deflected by B1 who is applying direct pressure on A1. B2 jumps from his/her frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands in the backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team B. The throw-in ends with B1s deflection (legal touch). When B2 gains possession/control in the air, he/she has frontcourt status. A backcourt violation has occurred when B2 lands in backcourt. (9-9-1, 9-9-3)

SITUATION 5: Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the teams backcourt (Team Bs frontcourt). A1s throw-in is intercepted by B1. B1 jumps from his/her frontcourt, catches the ball in the air and lands with the first foot in the frontcourt and second foot in the backcourt. RULING: No violation, legal play. It doesnt matter if one foot lands before the other provided it is a normal landing. Since there was no deflection, the throw-in had not ended. (9-9-1, 9-9-3)

SITUATION 6: Team A is making a throw-in near the division line in the teams frontcourt (Team Bs backcourt). A1s throw-in is deflected by B1 who is applying direct pressure on A1. B2 jumps from his/her backcourt and catches the ball in the air. B2 lands with the first foot in the frontcourt and second foot in the backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team B. The throw-in ends with the deflection (legal touch) by B1. B2 gains possession/control and first lands in Team Bs frontcourt and then steps in Team Bs backcourt. The provision for making a normal landing only applies to the exceptions of a throw-in and a defensive player, and is only for the player making the initial touch on the ball. (9-9-1, 9-9-3)

SITUATION 7: A1, in the teams frontcourt, passes towards A2, also in the teams frontcourt. B1 deflects the ball toward Team As backcourt. The ball bounces only in Team As frontcourt before crossing the division line. While the ball is still in the air over Team As backcourt, but never having touched in Team As backcourt, A2 gains possession of the ball while standing in Team As backcourt. RULING: Backcourt violation on Team A. Team A was still in team control and caused the ball to have backcourt status. Had A2 permitted the ball to bounce in the backcourt after having been deflected by B1, there would have been no backcourt violation. (4-4-1, 4-4-3, 9-9-1)

SITUATION 8: A1, while dribbling the ball in the frontcourt near the midcourt line, has the ball strike the midcourt line and as the ball comes up from the dribble, A1 touches the ball and continues to dribble. RULING: Backcourt violation. A1 may not be the first to touch the ball in the backcourt if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt, before it went to the backcourt. (9-9-1)

SITUATION 9: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. The administering official reaches a four-second count when A1 passes the ball to A2, who had been standing in the free-throw lane since A1 had the ball at his/her disposal. RULING: Legal. Even though a team is now in control during a throw-in, the three-second rule specifically requires that a team be in control in its frontcourt for a violation to occur. Technically speaking, the thrower-in is out of bounds and not located in the frontcourt. (4-35-2, 9-7)

SITUATION 10: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her backcourt. The administering official reaches a four-second count when A1 passes the ball onto the court. A1s pass to A2, who is also in Team As backcourt, takes several bounces and six seconds before A2 picks up and controls the ball. RULING: Legal. Even though a team is now in control during a throw-in, the 10-second rule specifically requires that a player/team be in continuous control in its backcourt for 10 seconds for a violation to occur. Technically speaking, the thrower-in is out of bounds and not located in the backcourt. (4-35-2, 9-8)

SITUATION 11: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the free-throw line, is high, bounces several times and goes into Team As backcourt
untouched. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team As backcourt. RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player control and team control had not yet been established in Team As frontcourt before the ball went into Team As backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball in the backcourt and the backcourt count starts as soon as A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2, 9-9)

SITUATION 12: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. A1s pass to A2, who is in the frontcourt standing near the division line, is high and deflects off A2s hand and goes into Team As backcourt. A2 is then the first to control the ball in Team As backcourt. RULING: Legal. There is no backcourt violation since player control and team control had not yet been established in Team As frontcourt before the ball went into Team As backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A2 gains control in his/her backcourt. (4-12-2, 9-9)
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Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 08:33am
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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Just like the 2012-13 Contact Above The Shoulders Points Of Emphasis.

Stupid NFHS.
I have said this before, people here love to tell us what is the standard of an interpretation but you cannot find them anywhere in the current material. That is a problem and always has been a problem. And digging up old interpretations does not help IMO unless they are listed in a centralized location that everyone has access to. This page is not that location.

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Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 08:35am
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Casebook ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
If you don't happen to have that year's book with the POE or one of the other few historical publications, there would be no way to know.
This did make it's way into the casebook:

4.12.2 SITUATION B: During a throw-in by A-1 from the end line by Team As basket: (a) A2 is in the restricted lane area for four seconds of the throw-in count; or (b) the throw-in is touched by A2 before it goes across the division line where it is recovered by A3. RULING: Legal in (a) and (b), even though Team A is in team control during the throw-in. There is no three-second count in (a) since team control had not yet been established in Team As frontcourt. There is no backcourt violation in (b) since team control had not yet been established in team As frontcourt before the ball went into Team As backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A3 gains control in his/her backcourt. (9-7, 8, 9)
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Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 08:42am
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Pleistocene Epoch ...

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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... you cannot find them anywhere in the current material. That is a problem and always has been a problem ... unless they are listed in a centralized location that everyone has access to ...
Agree. How is any official who started officiating after 2012-2013 (that was eight years ago) supposed to know how to correctly interpret contact above the shoulders?

Are we supposed to depend on the oral tradition of old, grizzled, veteran officials telling stories to young'uns around blazing campfires?

This is the twenty-first century, not the Pleistocene Epoch.



That's Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. in the lower right of the cave painting, eating his medium-rare Woolly Mammoth. He's getting ready to tell his "Change of Status" story.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jul 09, 2020 at 12:18pm.
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Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 08:52am
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Team Control Foul ...

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Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
4.12.2 SITUATION B: During a throw-in by A-1 from the end line by Team A’s basket: (a) A2 is in the restricted lane area for four seconds of the throw-in count; or (b) the throw-in is touched by A2 before it goes across the division line where it is recovered by A3. RULING: Legal in (a) and (b), even though Team A is in team control during the throw-in. There is no three-second count in (a) since team control had not yet been established in Team A’s frontcourt. There is no backcourt violation in (b) since team control had not yet been established in team A’s frontcourt before the ball went into Team A’s backcourt. The throw-in ends when A2 legally touches the ball, but the backcourt count does not start until A3 gains control in his/her backcourt. (9-7, 8, 9)
And we have this:

4.19.7 SITUATION D: A1 has the ball for a throw in. The throw-in pass deflects off of A2. As A2 and B2 are attempting to retrieve the loose throw-in pass, A2 illegally pushes B2 from behind and is called for a foul. Team B is in the bonus. RULING: Team A is in control during this throw in, therefore a team-control foul has been committed. B2 is awarded a throw in at a spot closest to where the foul occurred. (4-12-6)
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Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 08:55am
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Um...actually it is in the book. You clearly didn't look hard enough. I gave you the page number to the exact same thing Billy posted.
And I said thanks for the cite...See Camrons post for the rest of what I meant. That wording should be in book each year. Thx again for the cite.
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Old Thu Jul 09, 2020, 01:23pm
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Riddle Me This ...

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. Before A1 releases his throwin pass, A2 sets an illegal screen against B2. Team control foul charged to A2. No free throws for B2.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A3 then sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 catches the ball inbounds, obtaining player control inbounds and thus team control. A2, after catching the ball (holding, possession) immediately fumbles the ball. During the fumble, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team control foul charged to A3. No free throws for B3.

A1 has possession out of bounds for a throwin. A1 releases his throw pass and A2 touches the ball inbounds but never obtains player control inbounds (no holding, no possession), and thus never obtains team control inbounds. The legal touch by A2 inbounds ends the throwin. During the loose ball, A3 sets an illegal screen against B3. Team B is in the bonus. Is a team control foul charged to A3 (thus no free throws for B3), or does B3 shoot free throws?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jul 10, 2020 at 09:00am.
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