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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 12:56am
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Backcourt Violation?

A1 is on the end line in front court for a throw in. The throw in is legally touched by B1 who tips the ball. The tipped ball hits A2 in the shoulder and the ball goes into the back court. A2 goes and retrievies the ball in back court.

Is this a back court violation?
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 04:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
A1 is on the end line in front court for a throw in. The throw in is legally touched by B1 who tips the ball. The tipped ball hits A2 in the shoulder and the ball goes into the back court. A2 goes and retrievies the ball in back court. Is this a back court violation?
1) For a backcourt violation to occur, team control in the frontcourt is required by 9-9-1. In the situation stated, team control in the frontcourt is not attained.

2) Many have found this outline to be helpful in identifying whether or not a backcourt violation has happened. According to this, the situation expressed does not qualify:

For a backcourt violation to occur, there must be:
A. Team control (and initial player control when coming from a throw-in);
B. The ball must have achieved frontcourt status;
C. The team in team control must be the last to touch the ball before it goes into the backcourt
D. That same team must be the first to touch after the ball has been in the backcourt.
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 07:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
A1 is on the end line in front court for a throw in. The throw in is legally touched by B1 who tips the ball. The tipped ball hits A2 in the shoulder and the ball goes into the back court. A2 goes and retrievies the ball in back court.



Is this a back court violation?
The location of the throw-in is irrelevant to any ruling. The fact that B1 tips the ball is also irrelevant for this play. There is nothing relevant until the moment a player on the court gains player control. There can be no backcourt violations until AFTER the act of player control.

I cannot believe in all these years you've been officiating that you've never had an offensive player tip a throw-in into the backcourt and a member of his/her then retrieves the ball.

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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Mar 06, 2020 at 08:01am.
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 10:56am
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Crowd Reaction ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
The location of the throw-in is irrelevant to any ruling.
In terms of officials knowing backcourt rule and interpretation, agree 100%.

However, a throwin from the frontcourt endline that is touched (no player control) by the offense and goes into the backcourt where it is retrieved again by the offense will generate a greater negative crowd reaction (coaches and players seem to understand the rule) than the same exact play from a sideline throwin.

I've been hearing moans, groans, and jeers from fans for forty years.

This is one of those plays where I wish I could stop the game and explain the real rule to the fans, "There was no player control and team control established in the frontcourt".

Grandmas and Grandpas don't seem to understand the backcourt rule and interpretation.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 06, 2020 at 02:13pm.
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 02:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
In terms of officials knowing backcourt rule and interpretation, agree 100%.

However, a throwin from the frontcourt endline that is touched (no player control) by the offense and goes into the backcourt where it is retrieved again by the offense will generate a greater negative crowd reaction (coaches and players seem to understand the rule) than the same exact play from a sideline throwin.

I've been hearing moans, groans, and jeers from fans for forty years.

This is one of those plays where I wish I could stop the game and explain the real rule to the fans, "There was no player control and team control established in the frontcourt".

Grandmas and Grandpas don't seem to understand the backcourt rule and interpretation.

Not sure why the moans and groans are relevant to knowing the rule. Are you stopping the game to explain the rule to the fans?
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 02:52pm
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Rule Misconceptions ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Not sure why the moans and groans are relevant to knowing the rule.
Knowing rule misconceptions in advance can help basketball officials understand where players, coaches, parents, and fans, are “coming from”, especially when dealing with a questioning coach or player, already knowing in advance what they're confused about.

But that's not the important part.

More so, knowing rule misconceptions in advance can help rookie basketball officials by clearing up misconceptions that they might have had coming into basketball officiating after years of being a player, or a fan.

I know some inexperienced (or low quality experienced) basketball officials who carry many misconceptions (including this backcourt one).

I believe that it's best to head these misconceptions "off at the pass", and not to ignore them, or discount them, but to deal with them (especially in the case of rookie basketball officials) "head on".

Don't only teach the correct rule, but offer the misconceived rule and warn against it.

Frontcourt endline versus sideline throwin?

99% of us know the rule, let's not ignore the 1% that don't, confront them with the misconception and clear it up, the earlier, the better.

Ignoring this misconception when we are aware of it is not going to be helpful to our cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Are you stopping the game to explain the rule to the fans?
Sometimes I'd like to, but it's not part of my job description.

Instead I just think to myself, "Ignorant idiots", shake my head, and laugh it off.

After forty years, I know better than to confront angry fans, especially well dressed ones carrying pitchforks and torches.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 06, 2020 at 04:01pm.
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 04:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
The fact that B1 tips the ball is also irrelevant for this play.
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For this exact play, that is correct. Perhaps this is a good time to recall that the first touch can have an impact. Consider if, in the OP, A2 jumping in the FC, catching the tipped ball, and landing in the BC. = BC violation. The defensive tip was very relevant. Remove that tip and there is no BC violation with A2 jumping in FC/catching/landing in BC.

I haven't stopped games but I have quickly discussed/explained plays to small groups in the crowd during a dead ball/intermission of lower level games. I did that frequently in soccer years ago. People are yelling out of misunderstanding and a very quick explanation can, many times, settle them down and eliminate further yelling. Nearly always works in low level play.
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Last edited by bucky; Fri Mar 06, 2020 at 10:34pm.
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 05:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
In terms of officials knowing backcourt rule and interpretation, agree 100%.

However, a throwin from the frontcourt endline that is touched (no player control) by the offense and goes into the backcourt where it is retrieved again by the offense will generate a greater negative crowd reaction (coaches and players seem to understand the rule) than the same exact play from a sideline throwin.

I've been hearing moans, groans, and jeers from fans for forty years.

This is one of those plays where I wish I could stop the game and explain the real rule to the fans, "There was no player control and team control established in the frontcourt".

Grandmas and Grandpas don't seem to understand the backcourt rule and interpretation.

Not only that, coaches don't understand it. I bet I had 7-8 "last to touch/first to touch" backcourt violations this season, all of them after the defense had tipped the ball in the frontcourt, then the offense touches it before it goes into the backcourt where they touch it first. They are convinced that if the defense tips the ball, all bets are off and backcourt isn't possible.
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 05:35pm
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Sub-Middle School Games ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I haven't stopped games but I have quickly discussed/explained plays to small groups in the crowd during a dead ball/intermission of lower level games ... People are yelling out of misunderstanding and a very quick explanation can, many times, settle them down and eliminate further yelling. Nearly always works in level play.
I've occasionally done the same in my middle school games.

I've been criticized (fairly) for doing so, but what are they going to do, demote me down to sub-middle school games?

Wait? Uh-oh. Some middle schools around here have junior varsity teams. I'd better stop talking to the fans.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Mar 06, 2020 at 05:38pm.
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Old Fri Mar 06, 2020, 06:45pm
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