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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 01:35pm
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Intentional foul to end qtr

This came up due to a Intentional foul with a running clock, but it raised the better question.

B1 Intentional Fouls A1 as time expires in the 1st Qtr. Imagine a 2 hand push in the back on a layup as time expires. (within reaction time for timer, so no time to put back)

Is A1 is awarded 2 free throws as part of 1st qtr or 2nd qtr?

If free throws are part of 1st qtr, How does the 2nd qtr. start?
With arrow or possession from the intentional foul?

If possession from the foul, where is the throw in?

If there is a rule or case on point I have missed it.
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Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 01:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo96 View Post
This came up due to a Intentional foul with a running clock, but it raised the better question.

B1 Intentional Fouls A1 as time expires in the 1st Qtr. Imagine a 2 hand push in the back on a layup as time expires. (within reaction time for timer, so no time to put back)

Is A1 is awarded 2 free throws as part of 1st qtr or 2nd qtr?

If free throws are part of 1st qtr, How does the 2nd qtr. start?
With arrow or possession from the intentional foul?

If possession from the foul, where is the throw in?

If there is a rule or case on point I have missed it.
The IF was part of the 1st quarter, and no part of a penalty can carry over, so start the 2nd quarter with an AP throw-in.
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Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 01:58pm
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Definite Information ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo96 View Post
... as time expires (within reaction time for timer, so no time to put back)
Be careful here. Reaction time (lag time) is not a thing any more. Those days have long passed. Definite information is a thing now.

5-10: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to
start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information
relative to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may
be placed on the clock.




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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 04, 2020 at 09:52am.
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Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 02:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The IF was part of the 1st quarter, and no part of a penalty can carry over, so start the 2nd quarter with an AP throw-in.

Agree 100%. Unfortunately you may run into some partners who absolutely insist that you have to put some time back on the clock in a situation like this (whether IF or not). This is wrong unless someone has definite clock information. They’re conflating this with either an old interp regarding “some time, usually 0.3, must elapse on a throw-in” or some NCAA/NBA procedures, which are often moot anyway because they can consult a monitor (in reality there’s almost always some time left except for a foul on an airborne shooter post-release).

The only NFHS standard is definite knowledge. If you or a partner don’t look up in time to see the clock before it expires, then you shoot the FTs with the lane clear.


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Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 02:52pm
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Old Throwin Interpretation ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Unfortunately you may run into some partners who absolutely insist that you have to put some time back on the clock in a situation like this (whether IF or not). This is wrong unless someone has definite clock information. They’re conflating this with either an old interp regarding “some time, usually 0.3, must elapse on a throw-in” ...
Note: Not relevant to original post.

Basketball Rules Interpretations - 2009-10
SITUATION 11: Team B scores a goal to take the lead by one point. A1 immediately requests and is granted a timeout with three seconds remaining in the fourth quarter. Following the time-out, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in from anywhere along the end line. A1 passes the ball to A2, who is also outside the boundary; A2 passes the ball to A1 who is inbounds and running the length of the court. The timer mistakenly starts the clock when A2 touches A1’s pass while standing outside the boundary. An official notices the clock starting on A2’s touch (a), before A2 releases the throw-in pass to A1, (b), while A2’s throw-in pass is in flight to A1, or (c), as soon as A1 catches the throw-in pass. RULING: This is an obvious timing mistake and may be corrected. In (a) and (b), the official shall blow the whistle, stop play and direct the timer to put three seconds on the game clock. Since the throw-in had not ended, play is resumed with a Team A throw-in from anywhere along the end line. In (c), the official may put the correct time on the clock, but must make some allowance for the touching by A1 – likely 10ths of a second, if displayed. The ball is put in play nearest to where it was located when the stoppage occurred to correct the timing mistake. A “do over” is not permitted in (c), since the throw-in had ended. (4-36; 5-10-1)
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Feb 03, 2020 at 02:59pm.
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Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 03:14pm
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No Penalty Carries Over ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The IF was part of the 1st quarter, and no part of a penalty can carry over, so start the 2nd quarter with an AP throw-in.
Agree.

5-6: Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal illuminates
or sounds indicating time has expired, as in 1-14.
EXCEPTIONS:
1. If the ball is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or
extra period ends when the try or tap ends.
2. If a held ball or violation occurs so near the expiration of time that the
clock is not stopped before time expires, the quarter or extra period ends
with the held ball or violation.
3. If a foul occurs so near the expiration of time that the timer cannot get the
clock stopped before time expires or after time expires, but while the ball
is in flight during a try or tap for field goal, the quarter or extra period ends
when the free throw(s) and all related activity have been completed. No
penalty or part of a penalty carries over from one quarter or extra period to
the next,
except when a correctable error, as in 2-10, is rectified.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 04, 2020 at 09:14am.
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Old Mon Feb 03, 2020, 05:44pm
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Thanks

I understand the rule on reaction time, just trying to make clear there was no time to put back. (spiting hairs I know)

5-6-2 note 3 is the rule I was thinking of, but I kept looking in Sec 10 under Fouls and Penalties.

Thanks.
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Old Tue Feb 04, 2020, 09:59am
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The Way Of The Dinosaurs ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo96 View Post
I understand the rule on reaction time, just trying to make clear there was no time to put back.
I understand your point, but just to be clear, for the young'uns, there is no rule on reaction time (how can one understand a rule that doesn't exist).

There used to be a reaction (lag) time rule, but it went the way of the dinosaurs (I'm talking real dinosaurs, not a metaphor for Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.)

The new rule is about a improper stopping/starting, exact time, and definite information, not about lag time or reaction time.

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“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Feb 04, 2020 at 12:01pm.
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Old Tue Feb 04, 2020, 12:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I understand your point, but just to be clear, for the young'uns, there is no rule on reaction time (how can one understand a rule that doesn't exist).

There used to be a reaction (lag) time rule, but it went the way of the dinosaurs (I'm talking real dinosaurs, not a metaphor for Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.)

The new rule is about a improper stopping/starting, exact time, and definite information, not about lag time or reaction time.
There still is reaction time in the rules, just not lag time.

See 5-6-2 Exception 3. It basically describes reaction time. Whatever time it takes for the official to blow the whistle and then see the clock is the reaction time that the clock is allowed to run.

Lag time was a rule that allowed up to 1 full second to run off after the official saw the clock without being correctable.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Tue Feb 04, 2020 at 01:00pm.
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Old Tue Feb 04, 2020, 02:22pm
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A Rose Is A Rose Is A Rose Is A Rose (Gertrude Stein, 1913) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
It basically describes reaction time. Whatever time it takes for the official to blow the whistle and then see the clock is the reaction time that the clock is allowed to run.
I see your point, but the new rule does not call something like this reaction time, it calls it improper stopping the clock or starting the clock (which certainly may involve reaction time, a button miss or switch slip, or a distracted timekeeper), or at worst, an actual mistake, or (gasp) cheating. In any case we're not allowing something like that, whatever we want to call it, to happen if we have definite information of the exact time.

The concept allowing one second of reaction time, and in fact, the actual phrase reaction time, is long gone. Let's put it to rest or risk confusing some officials, both rookies and veterans (old dog, new tricks).
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Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Feb 05, 2020 at 11:08am.
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