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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 12, 2019, 10:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
How in creation can there be goaltending on the ball entering the basket from below? It's not a try, the ball is not entirely above the height of the ring, and is not on its downward flight with a chance to score when it is touched. As written, the situation in Question 59 does not meet the rulebook definition of goaltending. Question 59 needs to be scrapped.
Congrats, Sherlock. You have grasped why I posted that question in this thread. 😁
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 12, 2019, 10:35pm
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I thought that question made no sense when I saw it on the test. Is Theresia responsible for writing the test questions, or is someone else involved?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 13, 2019, 08:39pm
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Ok, here are the NFHS answers & my thoughts on these.

59. The NFHS answer is B. The problem is that they are clearly attempting to test one’s knowledge of the basket interference rule, not goaltending as the question states. There is no possible way that GT can occur when the ball enters the basket from below as it will either become dead when it passes through the goal while moving in the wrong direction since this is a violation or the ball will remain within the basket where if it is touched by a player, the infraction is BI. This question has now been on the exam for two years in a row.

65. The NFHS answer is E. Ugh. The very definition of a correctable error provided in 2-10-1 states that it involves setting aside a rule. I answered A as several of you responding to this thread also have posted.

71. Apparently, I’m in the minority in believing that there is a problem with this question. The NFHS answer is D. All of the above, but I can prove that this is not correct. My opinion is that this is true only when the ball contacts an official.
Consider NFHS Case Book play 5.2.1 Sit C. The play details a 3-pt try by A1 which is subsequently legally touched by either an opponent or a teammate while the ball is in flight towards the goal. The player touching the try can be either within the two-point area or fully outside the 3-pt line. Therefore this breaks down into four cases to consider. Three of these result in a 3-pt goal being scored. That cannot be the case if the ball had contacted the floor. The goal would only be worth two points per NFHS Case Book ruling 5.1.1 Sit A.

I don’t know when 4-4-4 was changed, but this rule is not correct. There is a difference between a ball contacting an official or a player on the court.

72. The problem here is purely definitional. The “bonus” is defined as the second FT awarded for a common foul in NFHS rule 4-8-1. Parts a&b of that rule tell us when this second FT is awarded. Since it is automatically awarded beginning with the 10th foul in a half, the NFHS provided answer of D cannot be correct. The answer should be C. (Yes, this definition is a hold-over from the days when a single FT was awarded for the first six common fouls committed by a team during a half and “the bonus” kicked in with the seventh foul and had to be earned by making the first awarded FT attempt.)

Last edited by Nevadaref; Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 08:41pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 13, 2019, 11:23pm
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Interesting then why NFHS didn't notice the error and correct "goaltending" to "basket interference". This is ironic, given the point of emphasis to officials to use proper terminology.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 13, 2019, 11:40pm
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As to 71, off top of my head, I’d say 4-4-4 has been that way for long time. I’m thinking they just didn’t modify it when 3 point came into game? I agree that there is a difference as you mentioned. (And admit it didn’t cross my mind until you mentioned it and case play above..)

Last edited by BigCat; Wed Nov 13, 2019 at 11:43pm.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 14, 2019, 12:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
As to 71, off top of my head, I’d say 4-4-4 has been that way for long time. I’m thinking they just didn’t modify it when 3 point came into game? I agree that there is a difference as you mentioned. (And admit it didn’t cross my mind until you mentioned it and case play above..)
I’ll have to sift through my old books to determine the history of 4-4-4.
Meanwhile, here is another example of the difference in touching.

A3 attempts a try for goal from inside the FT lane just prior to the expiration of time in a quarter. The try is released before the horn sounds, but defender B4 legally deflects the try after the release and after the horn has sounded. The ball still enters the basket despite B4’s deflection.

NFHS 5.6.2 Sit A informs us that this is a good goal and is scored. However, replace B4’s touching with the ball striking the floor and 5.1.1 Sit B tells us that the ball became dead and that the try does not count.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 14, 2019, 03:20am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I’ll have to sift through my old books to determine the history of 4-4-4.
Meanwhile, here is another example of the difference in touching.

A3 attempts a try for goal from inside the FT lane just prior to the expiration of time in a quarter. The try is released before the horn sounds, but defender B4 legally deflects the try after the release and after the horn has sounded. The ball still enters the basket despite B4’s deflection.

NFHS 5.6.2 Sit A informs us that this is a good goal and is scored. However, replace B4’s touching with the ball striking the floor and 5.1.1 Sit B tells us that the ball became dead and that the try does not count.
The point of that question was really about ball location, not an attempt to say that it was the same as the ball literally touching a the floor.

In the old paper test days, there were section headings that sometimes gave context to the question...something like "Ball Location". Perhaps this is from one of those days.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 14, 2019, 08:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The point of that question was really about ball location, not an attempt to say that it was the same as the ball literally touching a the floor.

In the old paper test days, there were section headings that sometimes gave context to the question...something like "Ball Location". Perhaps this is from one of those days.
I'm pretty sure (without the books here to check) that the statement in the question is right from a rule, or from the fundamentals.

Assuming that I am right about that, then the question might not literally be valid, but it's valid from a test-taking sense.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 15, 2019, 03:44pm
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Just responding to this as I do not like this question either --

59. The NFHS answer is B. The problem is that they are clearly attempting to test ones knowledge of the basket interference rule, not goaltending as the question states. There is no possible way that GT can occur when the ball enters the basket from below as it will either become dead when it passes through the goal while moving in the wrong direction since this is a violation or the ball will remain within the basket where if it is touched by a player, the infraction is BI. This question has now been on the exam for two years in a row. Yes the question has been on two years in a row, and I haven't liked it either time, LOL.

However in the NFHS rule book on page 61 under goaltending -- Rule 9-12 Penalty #3 "if the violation results from touching the ball while it is in the basket after entering from below, no points are scored and the ball is awarded to the opponents for a throw-in from the designated out-of-bounds spot nearest the violation".

My take is some computer data entry guy found that quote and hence the question and crazy wording -- the way that the question is read makes a difference (hand from below or ball from below?), and they reference goaltending, but using the hand through the goal from the bottom up is technically basket interference -- which we would award 2 points if the defense was responsible. The question I had was worded this way "If a goaltending violation is penalized for touching the ball entering the basket from below:" Then we had to choose from the options. If goaltending is penalized puts the thought that the defense did it into your mind. Terrible question in my opinion.

There is another question which I didn't like because the changed portions of the answer and all could be correct or 1 could be wrong in my opinion.

"A ball is at the disposal of a player in all of the following situations, EXCEPT:"
options are
"a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower.
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her.
c. Placed on the floor at the spot.
d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.
e. Bounced to a thrower or free thrower."

They changed wording on B that I don't like and E isn't totally complete -- so I would pick B caught by a player -- because 4-4-7 says "caught by a thrower or free thrower after it is bounced to him/her." Switching player for thrower free thrower is more poorly worded to me that "bounced to a thrower or free thrower" But all of them could be considered correct since b and e are both partial statements.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 15, 2019, 04:03pm
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Follow The Bouncing Ball ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MOVBlue View Post
A ball is at the disposal of a player in all of the following situations, EXCEPT:
a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower.
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her.
c. Placed on the floor at the spot.
d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.
e. Bounced to a thrower or free thrower.
I like e. Bounced to a thrower or free thrower, because in the case of a free throw, either team can request a timeout until the ball is caught (at the disposal) of the fee thrower. Probably also true for a ball bounced to a thrower.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Nov 15, 2019 at 05:41pm.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 15, 2019, 04:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOVBlue View Post
However in the NFHS rule book on page 61 under goaltending -- Rule 9-12 Penalty #3
The Penalties under 9-12 apply to both 9-11 and to 9-12.

And, penalty 3 can only apply to BI.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 15, 2019, 07:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOVBlue View Post
There is another question which I didn't like because the changed portions of the answer and all could be correct or 1 could be wrong in my opinion.

"A ball is at the disposal of a player in all of the following situations, EXCEPT:"
options are
"a. Handed to a thrower or free thrower.
b. Caught by a player after it is bounced to him/her.
c. Placed on the floor at the spot.
d. Available to a player after a goal and the official begins the throw-in count.
e. Bounced to a thrower or free thrower."

They changed wording on B that I don't like and E isn't totally complete -- so I would pick B caught by a player -- because 4-4-7 says "caught by a thrower or free thrower after it is bounced to him/her." Switching player for thrower free thrower is more poorly worded to me that "bounced to a thrower or free thrower" But all of them could be considered correct since b and e are both partial statements.
What other cases are you (as a referee) going put the ball at the disposal of a player by bouncing the ball to a player other than for a throwin or free throw?

The ball isn't at a player's disposal when it is bounced to them. It is at the disposal on a bounce only once it gets to them an dis caught (as in b). That is the point of this question....disposal, live ball, counts, etc. all begin when the player is handed the ball, catches the ball on the bounce, or could execute a throwin but are delaying. A ball in route is still dead.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 16, 2019, 08:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'm pretty sure (without the books here to check) that the statement in the question is right from a rule, or from the fundamentals.

Assuming that I am right about that, then the question might not literally be valid, but it's valid from a test-taking sense.

4-4-4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball touching the floor at that individual's location.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 19, 2019, 11:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
What other cases are you (as a referee) going put the ball at the disposal of a player by bouncing the ball to a player other than for a throwin or free throw?

The ball isn't at a player's disposal when it is bounced to them. It is at the disposal on a bounce only once it gets to them an dis caught (as in b). That is the point of this question....disposal, live ball, counts, etc. all begin when the player is handed the ball, catches the ball on the bounce, or could execute a throwin but are delaying. A ball in route is still dead.

I get that -- I just read that question and see a player on the court inbounds -- thrower out and freethrower on the line -- I also process that bounce as it being caught because in my head I see my self bouncing it and them catching it. Just the way my brain processes those two things lol
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 19, 2019, 04:31pm
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I would love for this to be a rule:

39. A player holding the ball:
....
Must announce which foot he or she will use as pivot foot.
....
....
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