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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 04:34pm
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Billy, please post 10.5.5A -f. That’s probably too much to ask but each one of those plays shows no FTs shot if bench folks leaving bench for each team same.

This is impossible to administer but it is what rule says..
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 04:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post

Billy post the fight play language. They all say if number leaving bench is equal no FTs...
The statements to the effect of having equal numbers are within each of sections on participating and not participating. That suggests the two counts are independent.

There is no overall statement saying participants and non-participants offset each other or all team members coming off the bench offset.

Again, the only statements about offsetting are within the context of whether the players participate or not.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 04:47pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The statements to the effect of having equal numbers are within each of sections on participating and not participating. That suggests the two counts are independent.

There is no overall statement saying participants and non-participants offset each other or all team members coming off the bench offset.

Again, the only statements about offsetting are within the context of whether the players participate or not.
See 10.5.5 section A. The fouls are treated same for FT purposes. If same number leaves bench there will be no FTs. Even if some more participate for one side in fight. The penalty is more indirects to coach if his kids leave bench and participate.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 04:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
See 10.5.5 section A. The fouls are treated same for FT purposes. If same number leaves bench there will be no FTs. Even if some more participate for one side in fight. The penalty is more indirects to coach if his kids leave bench and participate.
that *can* be true in some circumstances, but it's not a universal truth.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 04:49pm
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Each case play says if number leaving bench is same there will be no FTS. Participating gives coach indirects and possibly ejected.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 06:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Billy, please post 10.5.5A -f.
10.5.5 SITUATION A: Post-players A1 and B1 begin punching each other and play is stopped. Two substitutes from each team leave the bench area and come onto the court. The four substitutes: (a) do not become involved in the fight; (b) all become involved in the fight; (c) substitutes A6, A7 and B6 do not participate in the fight, but B7 becomes involved in the fight; (d) head coach enters the court to assist in curtailing the fighting. RULING: A1 and B1 are charged with flagrant fouls and are disqualified, but no free throws result from the double personal flagrant fouls. The four substitutes are charged with flagrant technical fouls and are disqualified. No free throws are awarded for the simultaneous technical fouls as the number of bench personnel leaving the bench and the penalties are the same for both teams. In (a), one technical foul is also charged indirectly to the head coach of each team. In (b), each head coach is charged indirectly with two technical fouls (one for each bench player leaving the bench and becoming involved in the fight). In (c), the Team A head coach is charged indirectly with one technical foul and the Team B head coach is indirectly charged with two technical fouls (one for substitutes B6 and B7 leaving the bench, and one for B7 becoming involved in the fight). In situations (a), (b) and (c), the ball is put in play at the point of interruption. Legal in (d). COMMENT: The head coach may enter the court in the situation where a fight may break out or has broken out to prevent the situation from escalating. (4-36; 7-5-3b; 10-4-5 Note)

10.5.5 SITUATION C: Substitutes A6, A7 and A8 enter the floor and fight with substitutes B6, B7 and B8. RULING: A6, A7, A8, B6, B7 and B8 are charged with flagrant fouls and disqualified. Each head coach is charged with three indirect technical fouls and disqualified and must leave the vicinity or the playing area and have no further contact with the team. Because the substitute’s fouls were offsetting, no free throws will be awarded. Charge each team with three fouls toward the bonus and resume play at the point of interruption.

10.5.5 SITUATION D: While the ball is live, players A1 and B1 commit fouls against each other at approximately the same time. A1 then punches B1. B6 and B7 leave the confines of the bench but do not participate in the fight. RULING: The common fouls by A1 and B1 constitute a double personal foul so no free throws are awarded. A1’s punch constitutes fighting and results in a flagrant technical foul and disqualification, and two free throws are awarded. B6 and B7 are assessed technical fouls and disqualified for entering the court illegally during a fight. Although B6 and B7 are both assessed technical fouls, only one is penalized with two free throws. The coach is penalized one indirect technical foul for B6 and B7 leaving the bench. (4-19-8; 10-3-7; 10-6 Penalties (Rule 10 Summary) 8.a, b) Administration of Penalties: The double personal fouls offset and no free throws are awarded. With the marked lane spaces clear, any member of Team B (other than B6 and B7) attempts two free throws for the flagrant technical foul (fighting) by A1. These attempts are followed by any member of Team A (other than A1) attempting two free throws (with the marked lane spaces clear) for the technical foul charged to B6 and B7 for leaving the bench during a fight, but not participating. Following the free throw attempts by Team A, play is resumed with a throw-in by Team A at the division line opposite the scorer’s table.

10.5.5 SITUATION E: A1 and B1 begin fighting and play is stopped. Substitute A6 leaves the bench area and enters the court to observe. B6 also enters the court at the same time, but B6 actually participates in the fight. RULING: A1, B1, A6 and B6 are all disqualified. No free throws result from the double flagrant foul by A1 and B1 or from the simultaneous technical fouls by A6 and B6. Each head coach is charged with one indirect technical foul resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. Play resumes at the point of interruption. (4-36; 10-3-8)

10.5.5 SITUATION F: It appears a fight may occur on the playing court when (a) A6 and A7; or (b) A6 and B6 leave their respective benches. RULING: In (a) and (b), all players leaving the bench are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified. The respective head coach is assessed a maximum of one indirect technical foul (regardless of the number of players leaving the bench) resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. In (a), Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. In (b), no free throws are awarded and the ball is put into play at the point of interruption. (4-36)

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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 10:01pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
See 10.5.5 section A. The fouls are treated same for FT purposes. If same number leaves bench there will be no FTs. Even if some more participate for one side in fight. The penalty is more indirects to coach if his kids leave bench and participate.
It appears you're correct. Looking specifically at (c) in that case:

Quote:
(c) substitutes A6, A7 and B6 do not participate in the fight, but B7 becomes involved in the fight;
The ruling then does say "No FTs...." and adds:

Quote:
In (c), the Team A head coach is charged indirectly with one technical foul and the Team B head coach is indirectly charged with two technical fouls (one for substitutes B6 and B7 leaving the bench, and one for B7 becoming involved in the fight). In situations (a), (b) and (c), the ball is put in play at the point of interruption.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Fri Nov 08, 2019 at 06:20pm.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 08, 2019, 02:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
It appears you're correct. Looking specifically at (c) in that case:



The ruling then does day "No FTs...." and adds:
Great, this is precisely why I posted this thread. I thank BigCat for his help in clarifying how to handle those leaving the benches whether they participate in the altercation or merely observe. I did not have a clear understanding of that.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 08, 2019, 08:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
The case plays and summaries make clear that 1. You penalize players on court as you always would.
2. If players leave the bench and the number is equal from both side, no FTs will be shot. If 2 As leave bench and fight and 2 Bs leave bench and don’t participate there will be no FTs. However, coach of A gets 2 indirects for his players leaving and fighting. B coach gets one.)

10.5.5 SITUATION F: It appears a fight may occur on the playing court when (a) A6 and A7; or (b) A6 and B6 leave their respective benches. RULING: In (a) and (b), all players leaving the bench are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified. The respective head coach is assessed a maximum of one indirect technical foul (regardless of the number of players leaving the bench) resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. In (a), Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. In (b), no free throws are awarded and the ball is put into play at the point of interruption. (4-36)
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 08, 2019, 08:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumpferee View Post
10.5.5 SITUATION F: It appears a fight may occur on the playing court when (a) A6 and A7; or (b) A6 and B6 leave their respective benches. RULING: In (a) and (b), all players leaving the bench are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified. The respective head coach is assessed a maximum of one indirect technical foul (regardless of the number of players leaving the bench) resulting in the loss of coaching-box privileges. In (a), Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. In (b), no free throws are awarded and the ball is put into play at the point of interruption. (4-36)
No bench players fought in this play. Max of one indirect. If bench players leave AND participate coach gets more indirects..

Last edited by BigCat; Fri Nov 08, 2019 at 09:07pm.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 11, 2019, 05:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Here's the guidance we get from our local board:

Fighting - Rule & Penalties
Be aware of signs of escalating tempers, gestures, actions, words from players,
coaches and possibly spectators. Penalize when discovered, no warnings are
necessary. Warnings most times carry little weight. Technical fouls and double
technical fouls are deterrents. Our stripes are the deterrents! Get yourself close to
the situation. In situations where rough activity might follow (players diving for
loose balls, hard contact fouls, held ball situations, player(s) being knocked to the
court), when you blow your whistle remain at the scene. Don’t over-react but pause
before leaving to report a foul or signaling a violation.

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting
includes, but is not limited to acts such as:
- An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms,
leg or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
- An attempt to instigate a fight by committing unsporting acts toward an
opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

Players In Fight:
If A1 and B1 fight during a live or dead ball, they are charged with flagrant
technical fouls and disqualified from the game. There are no free throws since this
is a double foul. Charge each team with one foul toward the bonus and use the
alternating possession arrow to resume play unless there is player/team control.

Bench Personnel:
a. Leave Bench and Participate in Fight
If bench personnel leave the bench during a fight and participate in the fight
those bench personnel are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified.
The head coach is charged with an indirect technical foul for bench person
who participates in the fight and is disqualified. A team foul is charged for each
disqualified bench person. If the same number of bench personnel from both teams
leave the bench, there will no free throws.
b. Leave Bench and Do Not Participate in Fight
If bench personnel leave the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out and
do not fight, they are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified. The
head coach is charged with one indirect technical foul regardless of the number
of offenders. A team foul is charged for each disqualified bench person.

Reminders
1. Players or bench personnel who are ejected due to Fighting are ejected to the
bench area, not the locker room.
2. When fighting by bench personnel leads to coach ejection, the coach must go
the locker room.
6. Do not get physical with the players, bench personnel or coaches.


After the chaos – Officials should convene near mid-court as a crew to discuss the
situation and maintain bench supervision. Do not allow coaches to enter this
discussion. Ask for input from other game officials (scorers & timer) as you deem
appropriate. Get the numbers of the fighters. Apply the rules and know exactly
what you are going to say when you call both head coaches together to explain the
situation. This is not a discussion period. Tell coaches they will be able to include
their discussion points in their follow-up report and that our charge is to resume
play in a safe environment and in a timely manner. If you do not believe you are
able to resume play in a safe environment, write pertinent information in the
scorebook and suspend the game. Report to your assignment commissioner after
game concludes.
Thank you. Good read.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 11, 2019, 08:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamnegger View Post
Thank you. Good read.
I actually came up with an newer version combining my local boards guidelines with the guidelines that Camron Rust posted earlier:

Fighting - Rule & Penalties
Be aware of signs of escalating tempers, gestures, actions, words from players, coaches and possibly spectators. Penalize when discovered, no warnings are necessary. Warnings most times carry little weight. Technical fouls and double technical fouls are deterrents. Our stripes are the deterrents! Get yourself close to the situation. In situations where rough activity might follow (players diving for loose balls, hard contact fouls, held ball situations, player(s) being knocked to the court), when you blow your whistle remain at the scene. Don’t over-react but pause before leaving to report a foul or signaling a violation.

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to acts such as:
- An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms,
leg or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
- An attempt to instigate a fight by committing unsporting acts toward an
opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

Rule 10 Fighting Penalty Summary
a. Players on the court:
(1) Corresponding number from each team – double flagrant fouls, all participants are disqualified, no
free throws are awarded, ball is put in play at the point of interruption (use the alternating possession arrow to resume play if there is no player/team control).

(2) Numbers of participants are not corresponding – Flagrant fouls and disqualification for all
participants, two free throws are awarded for the offended team for each additional player, offended
team awarded a division line throw in.

b. Bench personnel leaving the team bench during a fight or when a fight may break out:
(1) Do not participate in the fight – nonparticipants are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified. The
head coach is assessed a maximum of one indirect technical foul (regardless of the number leaving the
bench). If the number leaving the bench for each team is corresponding, no free throws are awarded,
and the ball is put in play at the point of interruption. If the number leaving the bench for each team is
unequal, a maximum of two free throws are awarded the offended team, followed by a division line
throw-in opposite the table.

(2) Participate in the fight – all participants are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified. The head coach
is assessed one indirect technical foul for each person leaving the bench and participating in the fight. If
the number leaving the bench for each team is corresponding, no free throws are awarded, and the ball
is put in play at the point of interruption. If the number leaving the bench for each team is unequal, two
free throws are awarded the offended team for each additional person leaving the bench, followed by a
division line throw-in opposite the table.

Note: All fouls (except an indirect technical foul charged to the head coach) count toward the team's
foul count in the half.

Administration to determine the order of incidents.
1. Layer the play from start to finish.
2. Determine first the actions on the court with the players in the game during the live ball and / or
dead ball period in which the initial incident occurred.
3. Determine players leaving the bench and not participating in a fight.
4. Determine players leaving the bench and participating in a fight.

Reminders
1. Players or bench personnel who are ejected due to fighting are ejected to the bench area, not the locker room.
2. When fighting by bench personnel leads to coach ejection, the coach must go the locker room.
6. Do not get physical with the players, bench personnel or coaches.

After the chaos officials should convene near mid-court as a crew to discuss the situation and maintain bench supervision. Do not allow coaches to enter this discussion. Ask for input from other game officials (scorers and timer) as you deem appropriate. Get the numbers of the fighters. Apply the rules and know exactly what you are going to say when you call both head coaches together to explain the situation. This is not a discussion period. Tell coaches they will be able to include their discussion points in their follow-up report and that our charge is to resume play in a safe environment and in a timely manner. If you do not believe you are able to resume play in a safe environment, write pertinent information in the scorebook and suspend the game. Report to your assignment commissioner after game concludes.

11/8/19
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Nov 11, 2019 at 08:06am.
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