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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 03:25pm
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Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
What type of "infraction" are you calling in this situation? Non-flagrant or flagrant? The OP says we have an "altercation" which subsequently results in the coach coming on the floor to control his players. If the officials define this to be a "fighting" situation, the rule you cite clearly says no free throws are awarded. If the fouls are not flagrant, I agree with your statement.
Coaches are not relevant any longer. (Assuming they’re not swinging etc)However, in past days they would be bench personnel. Count number from each side. If equal- NO FTs. If some of those fight the penalty was more indirects to coach and he is ejected.

The number leaving the bench determines if FTs are shot for those infractions. You have to figure out players on court stuff based on what they do. 2 seaoarate procedures. We don’t mix and match and offset all....
HOWEVER, if you did there’d only be a handful on planet who’d know if it was done correctly..
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 05:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
The case plays and summaries make clear that 1. You penalize players on court as you always would.
2. If players leave the bench and the number is equal from both side, no FTs will be shot. If 2 As leave bench and fight and 2 Bs leave bench and donít participate there will be no FTs. However, coach of A gets 2 indirects for his players leaving and fighting. B coach gets one.)

Only one player in the OP comes off the bench....
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 06:10pm
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Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB View Post
Only one player in the OP comes off the bench....
Yes, I know. Was giving a further interp...
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 08:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
1. A1 is fouled and entitled to one and bonus.
2. Then Double Ts for A1 and B 1. Not fighting though. They offset.
3. B2 shoves A1 w forearms.. He gets a T for sure but Id need to see it to call it flagrant. 2 shots for A.
4. A4 gets a T for shoving B2 away from his teammate. 2 shots for B.
A7 comes off the bench.... and participates in fight. He is ejected. Coach given indirect and regardless of what you do with the players in the game B will get two FTs because of this.

So. A1 shoots bonus. Then Any A player shoots 2 for b2 shove to forearm.
Then B shoots 2 for A4 shove and 2 more for A7 coming off bench and fighting. B gets ball opposite table.
What fight? If you're giving just giving T's to the players there was no fight. Yes, A7 gets ejected for coming off the bench and shoving B4 but according to your answer there was no fight.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 08:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Coaches are not relevant any longer. (Assuming they’re not swinging etc)However, in past days they would be bench personnel. Count number from each side. If equal- NO FTs. If some of those fight the penalty was more indirects to coach and he is ejected.

The number leaving the bench determines if FTs are shot for those infractions. You have to figure out players on court stuff based on what they do. 2 seaoarate procedures. We don’t mix and match and offset all....
HOWEVER, if you did there’d only be a handful on planet who’d know if it was done correctly..
You missed my point. If the "altercation" on the floor was such that one or both coaches had to come out on the floor to help get things under control (which is allowed) then a good case could be made this was indeed a fight.

Last edited by billyu2; Wed Nov 06, 2019 at 08:14pm.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 08:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
1. A1 is fouled and entitled to one and bonus.
2. Then Double Ts for A1 and B 1. Not fighting though. They offset.
3. B2 shoves A1 w forearms.. He gets a T for sure but Id need to see it to call it flagrant. 2 shots for A.
4. A4 gets a T for shoving B2 away from his teammate. 2 shots for B.
A7 comes off the bench.... and participates in fight. He is ejected. Coach given indirect and regardless of what you do with the players in the game B will get two FTs because of this.

So. A1 shoots bonus. Then Any A player shoots 2 for b2 shove to forearm.
Then B shoots 2 for A4 shove and 2 more for A7 coming off bench and fighting. B gets ball opposite table.
Why do you say A7 was fighting? He didn't do anything different than B2 and A4 according to your answer. A7 is going to be ejected for entering the court whether he ends up shoving someone or not. 10-12-8b
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 12:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
What fight? If you're giving just giving T's to the players there was no fight. Yes, A7 gets ejected for coming off the bench and shoving B4 but according to your answer there was no fight.
A7 doesn't have to be fighting. Bench personnel are treated as if they were fighting when they leave the bench in a situation where a fight may break occur, even if it doesn't. Otherwise, we'd just give A7 a T and not DQ A7.

Quote:
Rule 10-5-5: Leave the confines of the bench during a fight or when a fight may occur.

PENALTY: (Art. 5) Flagrant foul, disqualification of individual offender, but only one technical-foul penalty is administered regardless of the number of offenders.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 01:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
The case plays and summaries make clear that 1. You penalize players on court as you always would.
2. If players leave the bench and the number is equal from both side, no FTs will be shot. If 2 As leave bench and fight and 2 Bs leave bench and donít participate there will be no FTs. However, coach of A gets 2 indirects for his players leaving and fighting. B coach gets one.)
I donít believe that you are correct on your penalties for team members leaving the bench. Care to double-check?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 06:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
A7 doesn't have to be fighting. Bench personnel are treated as if they were fighting when they leave the bench in a situation where a fight may break occur, even if it doesn't. Otherwise, we'd just give A7 a T and not DQ A7.
Agree. Exactly what I said in my post just before yours. I didn't mean or need to include "and shoving B4" in that other post. Should have edited that out.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 02:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I don’t believe that you are correct on your penalties for team members leaving the bench. Care to double-check?
The fight rules/plays say that if the number leaving the bench when there’s a fight or one could breakout is equal then no free throws will be shot. There are case plays where 2 As leave bench and don’t participate. 2 bs leave but one does participate in fight.
You would think because a B participated there’d be more FTs. Not the case. No free throws because number leaving bench same. The penalty is head coach indirect for player leaving bench and one more for player participating.

Last edited by BigCat; Thu Nov 07, 2019 at 03:08pm.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 03:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
Why do you say A7 was fighting? He didn't do anything different than B2 and A4 according to your answer. A7 is going to be ejected for entering the court whether he ends up shoving someone or not. 10-12-8b
Player on court might shove each other. If have to see that before declaring it a fight. A7 comes off of the bench. Has no business being there. And he shoves someone. You can say he participates or actually starts fight.

It is strange but rule/cases are pretty clear. There is a difference in penalizing if player just comes off bench or comes off and participates.
If 3 blue come off bench and donít fight and 3 white come off bench and do fight...Players leaving bench are equal and be no FTs. However, blue gets one indirect T because he had 3 players leave Bench.
White team coach gets 3 indirects because he had 3 leave bench and participate. No FTs but white team coach is ejected. (3 indirect T)
You would think blue get more FTs because, while there players came off bench, they didnít participate. Not what rule says. Coach is penalized w more indirects when bench player comes off AND participates.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 03:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
You missed my point. If the "altercation" on the floor was such that one or both coaches had to come out on the floor to help get things under control (which is allowed) then a good case could be made this was indeed a fight.
I wouldnít declare that whatever happened on floor was a fight just because coaches came out. Coaches can come out to prevent one. A7 leaving bench, moment he does heís ejected because one could have broken out. When he shoves somebody, being a bench player, I think he is participating in or starting fight.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 03:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
(2) is not true. Fight participants and non-participants are treated differently. They don't offset each other.
It is very true for FT purposes. If the number leaving bench is equal there will be no FTs. Even if 4 blue team members leave bench and fight, 4 white team members leave bench and donít fight. There will be no FTs for bench players. However, head coach of white gets one indirect because his 4 player left bench and didnít fight. Blue coach gets 4 indirects and is ejected. That is where the extra penalty comes in.

Billy post the fight play language. They all say if number leaving bench is equal no FTs...
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 03:52pm
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Ps. Thankfully,knock on wood, Iíve never had fight in game. Iíve seen many on various sites. Impossible for referees to determine who did what etc. we are not allowed replay. Hope it never happens to any of you but just do best you can to straighten it out. ...
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Thu Nov 07, 2019, 04:25pm
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Guidance ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Billy post the fight play language.
Here's the guidance we get from our local board:

Fighting - Rule & Penalties
Be aware of signs of escalating tempers, gestures, actions, words from players,
coaches and possibly spectators. Penalize when discovered, no warnings are
necessary. Warnings most times carry little weight. Technical fouls and double
technical fouls are deterrents. Our stripes are the deterrents! Get yourself close to
the situation. In situations where rough activity might follow (players diving for
loose balls, hard contact fouls, held ball situations, player(s) being knocked to the
court), when you blow your whistle remain at the scene. Donít over-react but pause
before leaving to report a foul or signaling a violation.

Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting
includes, but is not limited to acts such as:
- An attempt to strike, punch or kick an opponent with a fist, hands, arms,
leg or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
- An attempt to instigate a fight by committing unsporting acts toward an
opponent that causes an opponent to retaliate by fighting.

Players In Fight:
If A1 and B1 fight during a live or dead ball, they are charged with flagrant
technical fouls and disqualified from the game. There are no free throws since this
is a double foul. Charge each team with one foul toward the bonus and use the
alternating possession arrow to resume play unless there is player/team control.

Bench Personnel:
a. Leave Bench and Participate in Fight
If bench personnel leave the bench during a fight and participate in the fight
those bench personnel are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified.
The head coach is charged with an indirect technical foul for bench person
who participates in the fight and is disqualified. A team foul is charged for each
disqualified bench person. If the same number of bench personnel from both teams
leave the bench, there will no free throws.
b. Leave Bench and Do Not Participate in Fight
If bench personnel leave the bench during a fight or when a fight may break out and
do not fight, they are charged with a flagrant technical foul and disqualified. The
head coach is charged with one indirect technical foul regardless of the number
of offenders. A team foul is charged for each disqualified bench person.

Reminders
1. Players or bench personnel who are ejected due to Fighting are ejected to the
bench area, not the locker room.
2. When fighting by bench personnel leads to coach ejection, the coach must go
the locker room.
6. Do not get physical with the players, bench personnel or coaches.


After the chaos Ė Officials should convene near mid-court as a crew to discuss the
situation and maintain bench supervision. Do not allow coaches to enter this
discussion. Ask for input from other game officials (scorers & timer) as you deem
appropriate. Get the numbers of the fighters. Apply the rules and know exactly
what you are going to say when you call both head coaches together to explain the
situation. This is not a discussion period. Tell coaches they will be able to include
their discussion points in their follow-up report and that our charge is to resume
play in a safe environment and in a timely manner. If you do not believe you are
able to resume play in a safe environment, write pertinent information in the
scorebook and suspend the game. Report to your assignment commissioner after
game concludes.
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