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Old Tue Nov 05, 2019, 12:33pm
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NFHS altercation penalties question

The NFHS rules seem unclear for the penalties when an altercation occurs.
Does anyone have a definitive answer as to which penalties can offset?

For example, A1 has the ball and is dribbling in the lane where he is fouled by B1. After the whistle, A1 and B1 face off nose to nose and exchange words, but donít have any physical contact. B2 comes running from near the division line and forcefully shoves A1 with both forearms. A4 takes both hands and shoves B2 away from his teammate. A7 comes off his team bench and shoves B4. At this point the coaches come onto the court and remove their respective players.

At the time of the play Team A had committed six fouls in the half and Team B had committed eight.
Please list the fouls which you would assess and which FTs would be attempted and which would offset.
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Old Tue Nov 05, 2019, 01:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The NFHS rules seem unclear for the penalties when an altercation occurs.
Does anyone have a definitive answer as to which penalties can offset?

For example, A1 has the ball and is dribbling in the lane where he is fouled by B1. After the whistle, A1 and B1 face off nose to nose and exchange words, but don’t have any physical contact. B2 comes running from near the division line and forcefully shoves A1 with both forearms. A4 takes both hands and shoves B2 away from his teammate. A7 comes off his team bench and shoves B4. At this point the coaches come onto the court and remove their respective players.

At the time of the play Team A had committed six fouls in the half and Team B had committed eight.
Please list the fouls which you would assess and which FTs would be attempted and which would offset.
The ten players and the bench personnel are treated differently under the fighting rules. You don't offset a foul by a player with one by a sub/coach/trainer/etc.

1) Foul by B1 which will result in FTs
2) Double technical foul A1/B1 (could argue flagrant since it led to everything else)
3) Double flagrant technical foul A4/B2
4) Flagrant technical foul A7 (and one indirect on the A coach)

A1 (or his sub) shoots the FTs for (1) and any B player shoots the FTs for (4). B gets the ball at the division line. A coach is seatbelted. After all is said and done B has 11 fouls and A has 9.

Last edited by SC Official; Tue Nov 05, 2019 at 03:44pm. Reason: Wrong info
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Old Tue Nov 05, 2019, 02:45pm
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Assistant Coaches ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Also, I'm assuming by "coaches" you mean only the head coaches came out.
NFHS Rules Changes - 2019-20
10-5-5 Note: The head coach and any number of assistant coaches may enter the court in the situation where a fight may break out - or has broken out - to prevent the situation from escalating.
Rationale: Based on some fight situations that I have seen and heard about over the last couple years at the high school level, I believe that this change, which was instituted at the NCAA level, is a change that is good for the game of basketball and in regard to player safety. It is difficult in our society for officials to be able to help to separate players involved in a fight since our society has become very litigious. Changing the rule to allow the head coach and assistant coaches to assist in these types of situations will help the officials to regain control of the entire situation more quickly and especially in regard to player safety.
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Old Tue Nov 05, 2019, 03:44pm
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DOH!

Thanks Billy. I edited.
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Old Tue Nov 05, 2019, 04:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
The ten players and the bench personnel are treated differently under the fighting rules. You don't offset a foul by a player with one by a sub/coach/trainer/etc.

Unless coach A comes running out onto the court yelling at B2 and they end up throwing punches at each other. But if that happens, youíve got deeper issues.


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Old Tue Nov 05, 2019, 06:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
The ten players and the bench personnel are treated differently under the fighting rules. You don't offset a foul by a player with one by a sub/coach/trainer/etc.
This part sounds nice and neat, but Iíve never seen such stated in anything from the NFHS. One could probably draw this conclusion from the structure of the penalty section, but it would great to see something formal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
1) Foul by B1 which will result in FTs
2) Double technical foul A1/B1 (could argue flagrant since it led to everything else)
3) Double flagrant technical foul A4/B2
4) Flagrant technical foul A7 (and one indirect on the A coach)

A1 (or his sub) shoots the FTs for (1) and any B player shoots the FTs for (4). B gets the ball at the division line. A coach is seatbelted. After all is said and done B has 11 fouls and A has 9.
I donít agree with this. Doesnít meet the definition.
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Old Tue Nov 05, 2019, 08:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
This part sounds nice and neat, but Iíve never seen such stated in anything from the NFHS. One could probably draw this conclusion from the structure of the penalty section, but it would great to see something formal.



I donít agree with this. Doesnít meet the definition.
Agree with your point on item 3. Since the fouls were not against each other, it can't be a double. It could be considered simultaneous, however. That would have the same net effect (offset/POI).

For me, it would depend on the time between the two events. If close (within a second or so) I'm calling them simultaneous. If not that close, I'm calling them two independent infractions and FTs would be shot for each, in the order of occurrence.


As for something from the NFHS regarding what offsets...see

Rule 10 Penalty Summary No. 8. Fighting:

Someone has cited this section here: https://bsbproduction.s3.amazonaws.c...fight-rule.pdf

They clearly separate the penalties for players involved and non-players involved.
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Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 07:14am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Agree with your point on item 3. Since the fouls were not against each other, it can't be a double. It could be considered simultaneous, however. That would have the same net effect (offset/POI).

For me, it would depend on the time between the two events. If close (within a second or so) I'm calling them simultaneous. If not that close, I'm calling them two independent infractions and FTs would be shot for each, in the order of occurrence.


As for something from the NFHS regarding what offsets...see

Rule 10 Penalty Summary No. 8. Fighting:

Someone has cited this section here: https://bsbproduction.s3.amazonaws.c...fight-rule.pdf

They clearly separate the penalties for players involved and non-players involved.
What type of "infraction" are you calling in this situation? Non-flagrant or flagrant? The OP says we have an "altercation" which subsequently results in the coach coming on the floor to control his players. If the officials define this to be a "fighting" situation, the rule you cite clearly says no free throws are awarded. If the fouls are not flagrant, I agree with your statement.
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Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 08:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The NFHS rules seem unclear for the penalties when an altercation occurs.
Agrees, as we've discussed before.

I'd like to see all of these offset (to the extent there's an equal number) and not need to worry about the specific timing or whether it's a player or bench personnel involved. And, in fact, that's the way it has been taught, here (at least a couple of years ago; I haven't seen a recent "official" presentation on this, but I don't think the rule has changed).

It doesn't make much difference in this play, since the foul by A7 is the "odd man out."
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Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 12:23pm
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Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
What type of "infraction" are you calling in this situation? Non-flagrant or flagrant? The OP says we have an "altercation" which subsequently results in the coach coming on the floor to control his players. If the officials define this to be a "fighting" situation, the rule you cite clearly says no free throws are awarded. If the fouls are not flagrant, I agree with your statement.
The action by the players on the court may or may not be a fight....that is judgement. As described, I'm probably not calling it a fight.
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Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 12:52pm
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I Went To A Fight And A Hockey Game Broke Out ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The action by the players on the court may or may not be a fight....that is judgement. As described, I'm probably not calling it a fight.
NFHS 4-18: Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live.
Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as:
ART. 1 An attempt to strike, punch or kick by using a fist, hands, arms,
legs or feet regardless of whether contact is made.
ART. 2 An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act
that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.

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Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 02:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The NFHS rules seem unclear for the penalties when an altercation occurs.
Does anyone have a definitive answer as to which penalties can offset?

For example, A1 has the ball and is dribbling in the lane where he is fouled by B1. After the whistle, A1 and B1 face off nose to nose and exchange words, but donít have any physical contact. B2 comes running from near the division line and forcefully shoves A1 with both forearms. A4 takes both hands and shoves B2 away from his teammate. A7 comes off his team bench and shoves B4. At this point the coaches come onto the court and remove their respective players.

At the time of the play Team A had committed six fouls in the half and Team B had committed eight.
Please list the fouls which you would assess and which FTs would be attempted and which would offset.
1. A1 is fouled and entitled to one and bonus.
2. Then Double Ts for A1 and B 1. Not fighting though. They offset.
3. B2 shoves A1 w forearms.. He gets a T for sure but Id need to see it to call it flagrant. 2 shots for A.
4. A4 gets a T for shoving B2 away from his teammate. 2 shots for B.
A7 comes off the bench.... and participates in fight. He is ejected. Coach given indirect and regardless of what you do with the players in the game B will get two FTs because of this.

So. A1 shoots bonus. Then Any A player shoots 2 for b2 shove to forearm.
Then B shoots 2 for A4 shove and 2 more for A7 coming off bench and fighting. B gets ball opposite table.
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Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 03:06pm
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The case plays and summaries make clear that 1. You penalize players on court as you always would.
2. If players leave the bench and the number is equal from both side, no FTs will be shot. If 2 As leave bench and fight and 2 Bs leave bench and donít participate there will be no FTs. However, coach of A gets 2 indirects for his players leaving and fighting. B coach gets one.)
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Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 03:08pm
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Moral of storyó/Donít have fights...🙃
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Old Wed Nov 06, 2019, 03:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
The case plays and summaries make clear that 1. You penalize players on court as you always would.
2. If players leave the bench and the number is equal from both side, no FTs will be shot. If 2 As leave bench and fight and 2 Bs leave bench and donít participate there will be no FTs. However, coach of A gets 2 indirects for his players leaving and fighting. B coach gets one.)
(2) is not true. Fight participants and non-participants are treated differently. They don't offset each other.
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