Steal, Foul, and Altercation (Video)

[APG]

Thoughts? Common foul? Intentional/flagrant 1 or NFHS flagrant/flagrant 2? Thoughts on how the officials handled the players coming together? What about adult personnel coming off the bench? Not exactly sure who the head coach is so pick one for discussion purposes. How would YOU ultimately end up administering everything in this?

[just another ref]

intentional foul for sure

[junruh07]

This is a lot easier watching the video multiple times than trying to figure it out in real time. At least intentional personal foul on the play. If there were any sort of plays than lead up to this one, probably a flagrant personal foul (Fed). The white player gets a technical. It didn't look to me like he shoved the red player, but if you want to throw him out for fighting, I wouldn't argue. Depending on who is game management (I think the first adult might have been) red has one, maybe two flagrant technicals for adults other than the head coach leaving the bench. The head coach just might get a technical as well depending on what and how he is saying the last part of the video.

[Valley Man]

Intentional foul for sure and would not argue flagrant at all. These guys did a great job of getting initial control IMO. I have no clue how you would gather all the info without the video. Best guess would be the new T to stand at the scorer's table and tell them to write what he says.

1)You have too many coaches on the floor since it is just to be the head coach to assist in fight control so some bench is getting a T also.
2) The coach in the black that is arguing could easily be whacked too from what I see him doing.

[LRZ]

A flagrant personal on the kid in red (#32?) for undercutting the shooter. The red team's head coach (the tall guy, in dark sweater and brown pants?) gets a direct technical: he definitely did not come onto the court to restrain players, but to berate the official.

In real time and without video review, I'd have a difficult time figuring out all the other "fighting/players on the court/bench personnel" fouls, and probably consider all that a wash, DQing no one else (besides #32).

The basket counts, White gets four free throws and then the ball for a throw-in at the point nearest the flagrant foul.

Anyone notice the short kid in white (#3?) keeping his teammates on the bench?

[JRutledge]

I got a flagrant 2 in college or flagrant in HS. Totally unnecessary and done on purpose IMO.

And I have an issue with the coach on the floor yelling at us and not stopping. He is probably not going to be around either. It looks like only one coach came out on the floor.

Peace

[bballref3966]

Flagrant personal.

Someone on white is getting whacked for the retaliation (I actually can't tell who retaliated).

The black team head coach is getting whacked for coming onto the court to make a scene.

[Matt S.]

We don't know where this is in the game, and what has led up to it.

On it's own, I'm going F1/intentional on 32. I'm then T'ing the coach in the black pullover for not getting out of my face as I try to get with my crew to sort things out. I'm also T'ing White 5--at 44 seconds, he continues to taunt black and is demonstrative...that's on film, so it's got to be handled.

In a situation like this, the last thing I'm concerned with is 'too many coaches on the floor'--as long as they're helping break up the fight. The coach who doesn't do that is the one who gets whacked.

[Camron Rust]

Minimum of an intentional. Flagrant a possibility but I'd probably only go there if there were some other prior issues.

[HokiePaul]

Thought the officials handled this very well -- regardless of what was called, they prevented a fight which could have easily turned into a brawl.

Immediate "intentional foul" signal and then stay with that player to prevent retalliation (exactly what was done here). Off officials then focus on preventing any further nonsense between players. I'd discuss with crew, but I think Intentional is appropriate and would not vote for Flagrant.

As was said previously, coaches attempting to prevent/break-up a fight are the least of my concerns. If, while observing players, I happen to "not notice" an assistant coach pulling one of his players back to the bench, I'm fine with that.

The only other call I'd have to consider is on the coach (assuming head coach) in the gold pants. The finger pointing and yelling at the very end of the video is probably crossing the "T" the line for me, given that he had more than enough time to make his point.

[Edit]: looking at this again, the Coach for white who comes charging across the court at ~12 seconds of the video probably needs to be issued a T as he is clearly not the HC (watching where he comes from behind the bench). While he is certainly there to break up any fight, charging off the bench like that is way different that calmly walking out to pull players back.

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by HokiePaul

Thought the officials handled this very well -- regardless of what was called, they prevented a fight which could have easily turned into a brawl.

Immediate "intentional foul" signal and then stay with that player to prevent retalliation (exactly what was done here). Off officials then focus on preventing any further nonsense between players. I'd discuss with crew, but I think Intentional is appropriate and would not vote for Flagrant.

As was said previously, coaches attempting to prevent/break-up a fight are the least of my concerns. If, while observing players, I happen to "not notice" an assistant coach pulling one of his players back to the bench, I'm fine with that.

The only other call I'd have to consider is on the coach (assuming head coach) in the gold pants. The finger pointing and yelling at the very end of the video is probably crossing the "T" the line for me, given that he had more than enough time to make his point.

Yep. It's going to be really hard to see all of the stuff going on around the benches in real time. Keeping order on the court is hard enough.

Definitely an Intentional and most likely a Technical on the black team's coach since he wasn't out there to prevent a fight. I'm giving him one chance to go back to the bench while we sort it out before he gets a Technical. After we huddle and sort things out, then he gets his explanation.

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by Matt S.

We don't know where this is in the game, and what has led up to it.

On it's own, I'm going F1/intentional on 32. I'm then T'ing the coach in the black pullover for not getting out of my face as I try to get with my crew to sort things out. I'm also T'ing White 5--at 44 seconds, he continues to taunt black and is demonstrative...that's on film, so it's got to be handled.

In a situation like this, the last thing I'm concerned with is 'too many coaches on the floor'--as long as they're helping break up the fight. The coach who doesn't do that is the one who gets whacked.

If this is what your are instructed to do in your area, roll with it. However, by rule (NFHS) only the head coach is permitted on the court without penalty. Around here all coaches and ADs know this and the penalty is to be enforced. The expectation is that assisstant coaches are to assist in keeping everyone else on the bench.

[BryanV21]

Would the fact that the foul nearly led to a brawl affect whether you called an intentional or flagrant?

I ask because keeping that player in the game could increase the possibility of retaliation later, leading to another altercation that could be more serious. It may be a good idea to remove him from the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Would the fact that the foul nearly led to a brawl affect whether you called an intentional or flagrant?

I ask because keeping that player in the game could increase the possibility of retaliation later, leading to another altercation that could be more serious. It may be a good idea to remove him from the game.

Not so much, but it was a dangerous play. Remember we are there to also protect the kids, if that is not flagrant, I really do not know what is. And the reaction would help show me how they felt about this and could help in the decision, but I thought it was flagrant before I saw the reaction. It is amazing to me he did not get hurt.

Peace

[ODJ]

If an AD or Principal comes onto the court to restore order and remove players, I'm not punishing that.