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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jul 30, 2019, 11:19am
LRZ LRZ is offline
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Well, all I know is this. The "independent contractor" argument is complete hogwash in many instances. Just because you are called one in form doesn't mean you are in substance.

Assigners and state associations use this copout when it's convenient for them while exercising a level of control on officials that, more often than not, can be construed as one of an employee/employer relationship.
And the NLRB agreed with you. The federal Court of Appeals disagreed. We used to say about judges, "Often wrong, but never in doubt."

What I was trying to point out is that our relationship with PIAA is, imo, neither that of employment nor independent contractor, but a hybrid.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 01, 2019, 02:45pm
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I'm curious if this will impact the college game. I know that for the Patriot/Ivy contracts, those refs weren't allowed to officiate HS basketball. I'm not sure how well a non-compete clause will read under the general idea of an IC. All but one of my assignors requires attendance at "summer/staff training camps", where they are just cashing in on my legs. Uniform requirements, numerous e-mails on how to adjudicate plays, reports that must be filed, etc.

Sure the NCAA has insulated themselves from this, but conference guys? That'd be fun to see.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 01, 2019, 03:03pm
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Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
I'm curious if this will impact the college game. I know that for the Patriot/Ivy contracts, those refs weren't allowed to officiate HS basketball. I'm not sure how well a non-compete clause will read under the general idea of an IC. All but one of my assignors requires attendance at "summer/staff training camps", where they are just cashing in on my legs. Uniform requirements, numerous e-mails on how to adjudicate plays, reports that must be filed, etc.

Sure the NCAA has insulated themselves from this, but conference guys? That'd be fun to see.
It will have zero impact on the Patriot/Ivy or any college conferences.

No official who has any desire to advance and/or remain college basketball is going to challenge the legality of an assigner's policies to his face, and certainly is not going to bring a lawsuit. Career suicide.

There is no shortage of officials who will diligently adhere to assigners' rules and "non-compete agreements."
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 01, 2019, 03:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
I'm curious if this will impact the college game. I know that for the Patriot/Ivy contracts, those refs weren't allowed to officiate HS basketball.....
Was it actually written into the contract, or was it a gentlemen's agreement? Was it a supervisor requirement or was it a requirement of the Patriot/Ivy consortium?

And to be clear, it was not a "non-compete" clause. Patriot/Ivy officials work(ed) in many other college conferences.

Non-compete clauses are what we have at the HS level, where some assignors/commissioners attempt to prevent their officials from working with other associations, especially associations who won contract bids over said association.
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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Aug 01, 2019 at 08:25pm.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 01, 2019, 03:26pm
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Was it actually written into the contract, or was it a gentlemen's agreement? I have 2 good friends on the Patriot/Ivy staff who continued to do some HS. Was it a supervisor (supervisor was let go) requirement or was it a requirement of the Patriot/Ivy consortium?

And to be clear, it was not a "non-compete" clause. Patriot/Ivy officials work(ed) in many other college conferences.

Non-compete clauses are what we have at the HS level, where some assignors/commissioners attempt to prevent their officials from working with other associations, especially associations who won contract bids over said association.
You're not wrong about high school, but that crap happens in college too (less the associations). Not saying it does in the Patriot/Ivy at all, but it happens.

There's a D2 supervisor in the Southeast who pretty much blacklists officials that work for a certain JuCo guy (as you know).
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 01, 2019, 06:43pm
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Full disclosure, I'm in no way associated with Patriot/Ivy. It's simply something I've heard from every one of those guys I worked with. I guess it was a gentlemen's agreement. I'd still call it a non-compete clause since you were barred from working other amateur athletic events.

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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
It will have zero impact on the Patriot/Ivy or any college conferences.

No official who has any desire to advance and/or remain college basketball is going to challenge the legality of an assigner's policies to his face, and certainly is not going to bring a lawsuit. Career suicide.

There is no shortage of officials who will diligently adhere to assigners' rules and "non-compete agreements."
But assume (and I'm of the same mind, I don't expect anyone to ever try it), someone did try and unionize college refs. Could this case be used as precedence? And like someone else said, this avocation is full of dudes who will work for peanuts if it means they get games.

And we have a certain Mid-Atlantic guy that gets pissed if you work for a JuCo guy. We got a memo stating that if you couldn't open up dates from that one guy, just go ahead and quit. Real IC, there.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2019, 07:11am
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Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
But assume (and I'm of the same mind, I don't expect anyone to ever try it), someone did try and unionize college refs. Could this case be used as precedence? And like someone else said, this avocation is full of dudes who will work for peanuts if it means they get games.

And we have a certain Mid-Atlantic guy that gets pissed if you work for a JuCo guy. We got a memo stating that if you couldn't open up dates from that one guy, just go ahead and quit. Real IC, there.
Not sure, I'm not a lawyer. There is too much money and perceived "prestige" the higher up you go for officials to press the matter and risk their careers. And there's no guarantee that a case would be successful, anyway.

I may not be qualified to give legal analysis, but I don't have to be a lawyer to know that this crap and the crap Raymond has dealt with is the antithesis of IC status. But the assigners will say "You are an independent contractor, if you don't like my terms you can leave." That doesn't really hold water. I can quit my real job if I don't like my boss or her rules, too. The difference is an employer legally has a right to tell you how to work and who you can work for.

In the case I mentioned above, the D2 supervisor had about a dozen JuCo schools and lost them to another JuCo supervisor. Obviously he was upset about this and now basically gives his D2 guys a "him or me" ultimatum.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2019, 10:24am
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Not sure, I'm not a lawyer. There is too much money and perceived "prestige" the higher up you go for officials to press the matter and risk their careers. And there's no guarantee that a case would be successful, anyway.

I may not be qualified to give legal analysis, but I don't have to be a lawyer to know that this crap and the crap Raymond has dealt with is the antithesis of IC status. But the assigners will say "You are an independent contractor, if you don't like my terms you can leave." That doesn't really hold water. I can quit my real job if I don't like my boss or her rules, too. The difference is an employer legally has a right to tell you how to work and who you can work for.

In the case I mentioned above, the D2 supervisor had about a dozen JuCo schools and lost them to another JuCo supervisor. Obviously he was upset about this and now basically gives his D2 guys a "him or me" ultimatum.
That is simply sour grapes. The guy lost the battle. He needs to win back his schools or deal with it. Telling people that they cant work for someone else is childish.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2019, 11:00am
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
That is simply sour grapes. The guy lost the battle. He needs to win back his schools or deal with it. Telling people that they cant work for someone else is childish.
Rational thinking doesn't exist in this business in many cases. His situation is no different. Same with the problems Raymond has had in Virginia.

As long as there are officials that will sell their souls to work so they can tell people they're a "D2 official," he has that luxury. It's funny, there are borderline JuCo officials that stuck with him over the JuCo assigner. To each his own.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2019, 12:09pm
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Independent Contractors Or Employees ???

Threads like this always have me question whether, or not, basketball officials are truly independent contractors.

I always hear the term "independent contractor" tossed about willy-nilly here on the Forum, or at my local board meetings.

Perhaps the answer varies from situation to situation and from one locality to another locality.

Perhaps some of us are truly independent contractors, while others are closer to employees.

Or perhaps, it's as LRZ noted earlier, "neither that of employment nor independent contractor, but a hybrid".

Maybe somebody on the Forum with a legal background in labor relations, or a background in tax preparation, can straighten this out?

I've done some research online (mostly regarding taxes and officiating travel mileage deductions) about the difference between independent contractors, and employees, and it's an unbelievably complex issue, requiring one to be an attorney, or a certified public accountant, to get through the paperwork.

I always check off "Individual/Sole Proprietor Or Single-Member LLC" on W-9 forms, but don't really know what that means, or if it has anything to do with independent contractor status or employee status.

Perhaps tax status has absolutely nothing do with independent contractor status or employee status?

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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 02, 2019 at 12:26pm.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2019, 12:31pm
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Assigners (including associations that assign) are what throw the IC/EE conundrum into a loop.

If assigners merely acted as agents for officials, helping them solicit business, it would not be such an issue. But assigners (even if they act like they don't) work for the schools, not the officials, so they function much more as bosses than agents due to the nature of their jobs. Many, unfortunately, act more as dictators, thus you get these ridiculous "non-compete agreements" and other restrictions on officials that clearly violate IC laws.

Schools directly hiring officials and the lack of the middleman is the most obvious scenario where we are clearly ICs. Not saying that this would be a good thing by any means (though there are areas that operate this way); merely pointing out the argument.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2019, 12:54pm
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Fun fact: There are three types of individuals who can represent you before the IRS: Attorneys, CPAs, and Enrolled Agents. Hell is an Enrolled Agent? Well, a CPA has 4 tests and one of them touches on taxes. EA's take 3 tests and 2 of them are on only taxes (3rd is IRS representative regulations). Main difference? EA's are cheaper than the first two.

Anyway, I got one test left for the EA designation. So I'm not an expert, but I've spent the past 2 months reading the tax code 3-5 hours a day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post

I always check off "Individual/Sole Proprietor Or Single-Member LLC" on W-9 forms, but don't really know what that means, or if it has anything to do with independent contractor status or employee status.

Perhaps tax status has absolutely nothing do with independent contractor status or employee status?
Tax status & employee status are linked. To make it simple: That 1099 you get goes to your Schedule C, and you get double tapped on it; first time as "business income" and then again as "personal income".

LLC & S-Corps get to avoid that, so those who are members/shareholders get taxed only once for that income. It's why on a lot of camp forms you'll see pay to "Zebra Refs, LLC" instead of "Bobby Joe". Employees also get to avoid that, as the employer pays half their share of FICA taxes. As an employee you also only pay "personal income" tax on that, not the additional "business income".

Now here's the fun part: An individual is usually an independent contractor if the employer, the person for whom the individual performs the services, has the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not the means and methods of accomplishing the result.

What really matters is the right to control how you work, not the results. What is the result of our work? A fair game? Equity? Ref every call properly? But tell me, we are told how to do our jobs are we not?

How many of us are getting fired if we show up and walk up and down the court? How many of us are getting phone calls if we use unapproved mechanics? Didn't get to the reporting area before you reported the call? Didn't show up 90 minutes before game time? Make the wrong call? You weigh too much?

The schools might not employ us, but the assignors sure do. In VA associations get contracts, not refs. Then the association "works" the game. How you can be an IC yet work for an association that tells you how to ref, where to work, and what time you work flies in the face of reason.

Why not make us employees? That's easy: Insurance, taxes, per diem, pay roll, benefits. It's a headache that no one wants to deal with.

Last edited by Player989random; Fri Aug 02, 2019 at 12:58pm.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2019, 01:17pm
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Player989random Is What You Call An Expert ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
Tax status & employee status are linked ...
Thanks Player989random. It's nice to have an expert like you on the Forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
... employer pays half their share of FICA taxes.
I pay Social Security (FICA) tax (the full 15.3%) on my officiating income in April of every year.

Doesn't everybody on the Forum do this?

If I don't pay this won't I have to share a prison cell with the partners of my accounting firm, Dewey, Cheatem & Howe?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Aug 02, 2019 at 01:42pm.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2019, 01:24pm
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Double Dipping ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
But assigners work for the schools, not the officials ...
That's news to me.

If that's true, why is my local board paying our assignment commissioner $31,920.00 (from our hard earned dues) to assign high school and middle school games in 2019-20?

Are you saying that he's also getting paid by the schools?

I don't think so.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 02, 2019, 01:26pm
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Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
Fun fact: There are three types of individuals who can represent you before the IRS: Attorneys, CPAs, and Enrolled Agents. Hell is an Enrolled Agent? Well, a CPA has 4 tests and one of them touches on taxes. EA's take 3 tests and 2 of them are on only taxes (3rd is IRS representative regulations). Main difference? EA's are cheaper than the first two.
A CPA license is not a "tax license" like many people think. They have to know much more than taxes because their certification covers way more.

I know some external auditors. They get annoyed when people ask them about taxes.

Last edited by SC Official; Fri Aug 02, 2019 at 01:30pm.
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