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Old Tue Feb 05, 2019, 11:20pm
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Dribbler Bears Responsibility for the Contact

Sometimes as an official and an observer, I will invariably see these two scenarios:

1) A1 dribbling along the sideline with defender moving parallel and in close proximity, then A1 just keeps on dribbling forcing his/her way into a narrower and narrower opening/path betw. B1 [defender] and the sideline, until ultimately A1 has no more room and is dribbling OOB on the sideline. Invariably, the player turns in an exasperated fashion towards the official and beckons for a "force out".

2) A2 is slashing their way thru the lane and encounters B3 and B4 [who were there first] in a double-team help defense, then A2 made contact with them and trips over the leg(s) of B3 and B4, and falls down. Invariably, a "block" is called on B3 or B4 despite the defenders(s) having been their first.

Invariably, I have seen fouls called on the defense; however, such calls disadvantage the defense---ostensibly unfairly. Has anyone else seen such and what has been the ruling or non-ruling?
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Old Tue Feb 05, 2019, 11:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
Sometimes as an official and an observer, I will invariably see these two scenarios:

1) A1 dribbling along the sideline with defender moving parallel and in close proximity, then A1 just keeps on dribbling forcing his/her way into a narrower and narrower opening/path betw. B1 [defender] and the sideline, until ultimately A1 has no more room and is dribbling OOB on the sideline. Invariably, the player turns in an exasperated fashion towards the official and beckons for a "force out".

2) A2 is slashing their way thru the lane and encounters B3 and B4 [who were there first] in a double-team help defense, then A2 made contact with them and trips over the leg(s) of B3 and B4, and falls down. Invariably, a "block" is called on B3 or B4 despite the defenders(s) having been their first.

Invariably, I have seen fouls called on the defense; however, such calls disadvantage the defense---ostensibly unfairly. Has anyone else seen such and what has been the ruling or non-ruling?
I have seen fouls called either way. HTBT situations honestly. There are things the defense could have done wrong and there are things the ball handler could have done wrong.

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Old Wed Feb 06, 2019, 12:09am
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Force Out ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
A1 dribbling along the sideline with defender moving parallel and in close proximity, then A1 just keeps on dribbling forcing his/her way into a narrower and narrower opening/path betw. B1 [defender] and the sideline, until ultimately A1 has no more room and is dribbling OOB on the sideline. Invariably, the player turns in an exasperated fashion towards the official and beckons for a "force out".
Are you officiating games at the senior citizen center?

Force out was a real rule back in ancient times.

https://youtu.be/HqynTsrlxvM
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Old Wed Feb 06, 2019, 12:11am
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One Is A Foul, One Isn't A Foul ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
A2 is slashing their way thru the lane and encounters B3 and B4 [who were there first] in a double-team help defense, then A2 made contact with them and trips over the leg(s) of B3 and B4, and falls down.
There's a difference between being tripped, and tripping.
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Old Wed Feb 06, 2019, 03:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
Sometimes as an official and an observer, I will invariably see these two scenarios:

1) A1 dribbling along the sideline with defender moving parallel and in close proximity, then A1 just keeps on dribbling forcing his/her way into a narrower and narrower opening/path betw. B1 [defender] and the sideline, until ultimately A1 has no more room and is dribbling OOB on the sideline. Invariably, the player turns in an exasperated fashion towards the official and beckons for a "force out".

2) A2 is slashing their way thru the lane and encounters B3 and B4 [who were there first] in a double-team help defense, then A2 made contact with them and trips over the leg(s) of B3 and B4, and falls down. Invariably, a "block" is called on B3 or B4 despite the defenders(s) having been their first.

Invariably, I have seen fouls called on the defense; however, such calls disadvantage the defense---ostensibly unfairly. Has anyone else seen such and what has been the ruling or non-ruling?
#1 sounds like a block....from what you described, the defender is moving towards the sideline, which is also towards the dribbler. That means the defender gives up LGP. Contact while moving towards the dribbler is not legal. Of course, if there is no contact, it is not a foul.

#2...where are B3/B4's legs? Inside the width of the shoulders our outside? It is hard to trip over the legs if the legs are inside the shoulders. If outside, that would be a block.
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Old Wed Feb 06, 2019, 09:25am
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
#1 sounds like a block....from what you described, the defender is moving towards the sideline, which is also towards the dribbler. That means the defender gives up LGP. Contact while moving towards the dribbler is not legal. Of course, if there is no contact, it is not a foul.
I would disagree with you on 1. Unless I misinterpreted the situation, it sounds like they are both moving toward the sideline and defender gets to that 3 feet place. At that point, NFHS POE (o) is "If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact," and (p) "A player with the ball is to expect no leniency regarding space." I take that to mean as long as the defender is in bounds and is moving laterally legally, the onus is on the ballhandler to avoid contact (i.e. stop or change direction). I think video or more clarity on this exact situation would help, but I'm here to learn so if I'm wrong then I'd love to make sure I get this play right if I see it.
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Old Wed Feb 06, 2019, 11:41am
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#1. I think there are just too many factors in play here for it to be anything but a HTBT. Is the defender square to the ball carrier in the parallel movement or shoulder/hip to shoulder/hip? As space is shrinking is the offense taking a path the d is matching or is the d angling in and making the o change their angle? Is this happening through presence or contact? Is the defender maintaining LGP throughout or constantly re-establishing? Sort of thing that each situation is going to be unique but I definitely have no interest in bailing out offense for trying to drive through a space that is too small to get through if that is the case.

#2 I think this one is often misdiagnosed by the camp of officials and their assignors who've decided that they don't want bodies on the floor without a call. Two players in LGP or at least a spot they are entitled to on the floor and and offense comes in ducking, diving, leaning, trying to find/create space and ends up clipping someone's thigh, hip etc and going flying on the finish. Its not a PC but because they feel like they have to have something they find something the defense did wrong. Not everyone is comfortable letting out of control offense create bumper cars in their games so they are coming up with calls on everything when the offense just goes hard at the basket.
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Old Wed Feb 06, 2019, 11:44am
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Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers View Post
I would disagree with you on 1. Unless I misinterpreted the situation, it sounds like they are both moving toward the sideline and defender gets to that 3 feet place. At that point, NFHS POE (o) is "If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the contact," and (p) "A player with the ball is to expect no leniency regarding space." I take that to mean as long as the defender is in bounds and is moving laterally legally, the onus is on the ballhandler to avoid contact (i.e. stop or change direction). I think video or more clarity on this exact situation would help, but I'm here to learn so if I'm wrong then I'd love to make sure I get this play right if I see it.
We're seeing the play differently.

I'm seeing a player running down the court and dribbling along the sideline with a defender also running down the court beside the dribbler and slowly veering into the dribbler such that the contact is never great but such that it eventually nudges the dribbler out. That defender is not moving laterally but towards the dribbler, slightly, losing LGP in doing so and committing a foul that put the offense at a disadvantage. And that is assuming the defender even had LGP to start with. Running down the court beside someone is usually not LGP.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Wed Feb 06, 2019 at 02:52pm.
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Old Wed Feb 06, 2019, 12:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
We're seeing the play differently.

I'm seeing a player running down the court and dribbling along the sideline with a defender also running down the court beside the dribble and slowly veering into the dribbler such that the contact is never great but such that it eventually nudges the dribbler out. That defender is not moving laterally but towards the dribbler, slightly, losing LGP in doing so and committing a foul that put the offense at a disadvantage. And that is assuming the defender even had LGP to start with. Running down the court beside someone is usually not LGP.
Alright, that makes sense. I agree with you. I was thinking more of a trap situation where the defender is allowing the offensive player to go toward the sideline, another defender gets there with a foot or so of space and the offensive player is "forced" out (by his/her own bad decision making).
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Old Sat Feb 09, 2019, 02:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
Sometimes as an official and an observer, I will invariably see these two scenarios:

1) A1 dribbling along the sideline with defender moving parallel and in close proximity, then A1 just keeps on dribbling forcing his/her way into a narrower and narrower opening/path betw. B1 [defender] and the sideline, until ultimately A1 has no more room and is dribbling OOB on the sideline. Invariably, the player turns in an exasperated fashion towards the official and beckons for a "force out".

2) A2 is slashing their way thru the lane and encounters B3 and B4 [who were there first] in a double-team help defense, then A2 made contact with them and trips over the leg(s) of B3 and B4, and falls down. Invariably, a "block" is called on B3 or B4 despite the defenders(s) having been their first.

Invariably, I have seen fouls called on the defense; however, such calls disadvantage the defense---ostensibly unfairly. Has anyone else seen such and what has been the ruling or non-ruling?
a lot of "invariables" in there Kansas. too big a word for me. I know what you are saying. its a htbt situation. at times we need to just call the dribbler for being OB...others, he's forced out. you'll know it when you see it. We talk about the second play a lot. A1 goes where there's no room then it's on him. call nothing or at times like these travel can be your friend....
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Old Fri Feb 15, 2019, 03:55pm
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
a lot of "invariables" in there Kansas. too big a word for me. I know what you are saying. its a htbt situation. at times we need to just call the dribbler for being OB...others, he's forced out. you'll know it when you see it. We talk about the second play a lot. A1 goes where there's no room then it's on him. call nothing or at times like these travel can be your friend....
Seriously BigCat...your nugatory perfidy regarding KansasRef's word choice is banal and sanctimoniously pernicious. I protest your assiduous contumacy. You should feel a sense of opprobrium for your insensitivity.
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Old Fri Feb 15, 2019, 04:20pm
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
Seriously BigCat...your nugatory perfidy regarding KansasRef's word choice is banal and sanctimoniously pernicious. I protest your assiduous contumacy. You should feel a sense of opprobrium for your insensitivity.
Yikes... (Sorry, my thesaurus doesn't have a biggerer word.)
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