Throw-In, or Not?

[cmcramer]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A scores a basket. B1 and the ball are out-of-bounds.

Under what circumstances, if any, may B1 release the ball such that B2 possesses the ball inbounds and have it NOT count as an throw-in (so that B2 can carry the ball back OOB and then complete a throw-in)?

For example, can B1 bat the ball to B2? Can B1 hold the ball and direct it to B2? What if it's obvious to everyone that B2 is *supposed* to be the inbounder? Does any of that matter?

Or, does B1 always *become* the inbounder, and the play described is a violation?

B1 releases a 'pop-fly' pass....in mid flight Team B calls a Time Out....B2 catches/possesses ball....after time-out B2 carries ball oob and completes throw-in.

I know it's not right, just trying to be funny...like BillyMac.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by cmcramer

I know it's not right, just trying to be funny...like BillyMac.

You are both trying. Very trying.

[Nevadaref]

An obvious underhand toss to B2 who is near the end line and walking out of bounds. If B1 did that, I wouldn’t whistle a violation. The intent would be clear to me that the team wants B2 to inbound.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

An obvious underhand toss to B2 who is near the end line and walking out of bounds. If B1 did that, I wouldn’t whistle a violation. The intent would be clear to me that the team wants B2 to inbound.

That gets to the crux of this philosophical /theoretical discussion.

Is any "propelling" of the ball (I am trying NOT to use rule book terms) of the ball for OOB to IB a throw-in pass, or do we need to determine whether it's with"intentto get the ball in play (that's a rule book term) so as to advance toward and score a goal."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A scores a basket. B1 and the ball are out-of-bounds.

Under what circumstances, if any, may B1 release the ball such that B2 possesses the ball inbounds and have it NOT count as an throw-in (so that B2 can carry the ball back OOB and then complete a throw-in)?

For example, can B1 bat the ball to B2? Can B1 hold the ball and direct it to B2? What if it's obvious to everyone that B2 is *supposed* to be the inbounder? Does any of that matter?

Or, does B1 always *become* the inbounder, and the play described is a violation?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

An obvious underhand toss to B2 who is near the end line and walking out of bounds. If B1 did that, I wouldn’t whistle a violation. The intent would be clear to me that the team wants B2 to inbound.

Originally Posted by Freddy

4-42-1: The thrower is the player who attempts to make a throw-in.
4-42-3: The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.
7-6-2: The throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.

Other than the reasonable discretion employed on a lower-level game, I'm trying to put all these together to come up with a reason not to call a throw-in violation.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That gets to the crux of this philosophical /theoretical discussion.

Is any "propelling" of the ball (I am trying NOT to use rule book terms) of the ball for OOB to IB a throw-in pass, or do we need to determine whether it's with"intentto get the ball in play (that's a rule book term) so as to advance toward and score a goal."

Freddy has given us the Rule citations to tell us what we have. B1 has PC of the Ball and is completely Out-of-Bounds. That means that the Ball is at Disposal of Team B and the Five-Second Count should have started.

Below JrHS I can possibly see cutting B1 some slack, but JrHS and above, Team B's Throw-in ended when it touched B2 and one of two things can happen as B2 moves toward the End Line. 1) B2 will commit a Traveling Violation first, or 2) B2 will cause the Ball to go OoB. In either case, Team B has committed a Violation and Team A will receive the Ball for a Designated Spot Throw-in nearest the Spot of the Violation.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Freddy has given us the Rule citations to tell us what we have. B1 has PC of the Ball and is completely Out-of-Bounds. That means that the Ball is at Disposal of Team B and the Five-Second Count should have started.

Below JrHS I can possibly see cutting B1 some slack, but JrHS and above, Team B's Throw-in ended when it touched B2 and one of two things can happen as B2 moves toward the End Line. 1) B2 will commit a Traveling Violation first, or 2) B2 will cause the Ball to go OoB. In either case, Team B has committed a Violation and Team A will receive the Ball for a Designated Spot Throw-in nearest the Spot of the Violation.

MTD, Sr.

I believe that take fails to take into account the intent and purpose of the rules. We should always officiate with that in mind. We are not robots and we need to use some discretion when officiating.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe that take fails to take into account the intent and purpose of the rules. We should always officiate with that in mind. We are not robots and we need to use some discretion when officiating.

I do not know about you, but when B1 is completely OoB with the Ball, I am starting my Five-Second Count. And I have to ask you: How do you explain to Team A's HC that there was no Travel or OoB Violations after B1 has taken the Ball completely OoB after A1's FG. There is nothing in the Throw-in Rules that allow for "intent".

MTD, Sr.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

I believe that take fails to take into account the intent and purpose of the rules. We should always officiate with that in mind. We are not robots and we need to use some discretion when officiating.

I have to quote Nevada here, although it pains me , and he's 100% correct.

Intent is implied in several scenarios in general in the rule book. You can elect to call this a violation, I may or may not depending on the circumstances. I won't loose sleep if we worked a game and you did.

[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

An obvious underhand toss to B2 who is near the end line and walking out of bounds. If B1 did that, I wouldn’t whistle a violation. The intent would be clear to me that the team wants B2 to inbound.

^This

Not even necessarily an underhand toss.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

A1 makes a FG. B1 takes the Ball completely OoB and is immediately Guarded by A1; the T starts a Five Second Count when B1 takes his position OoB with the Ball. B2, who is Inbounds starts toward B1 to become the Thrower and B1 tosses him the Ball and B2 catches the Ball while he is still at least three steps Inbounds as proceeds to walk OoB with the Ball. What do you have?

MTD, Sr.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

A1 makes a FG. B1 takes the Ball completely OoB and is immediately Guarded by A1; the T starts a Five Second Count when B1 takes his position OoB with the Ball. B2, who is Inbounds starts toward B1 to become the Thrower and B1 tosses him the Ball and B2 catches the Ball while he is still at least three steps Inbounds as proceeds to walk OoB with the Ball. What do you have?

MTD, Sr.

When B2, with the ball, has moved beyond the limitations of a pivot foot, traveling shall be called.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by bucky

When B2, with the ball, has moved beyond the limitations of a pivot foot, traveling shall be called.

This is correct, provided this:

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

A1 makes a FG. B1 takes the Ball completely OoB and is immediately Guarded by A1; the T starts a Five Second Count when B1 takes his position OoB with the Ball. B2, who is Inbounds starts toward B1 to become the Thrower and B1 tosses him the Ball and B2 catches the Ball while he is still at least three steps Inbounds as proceeds to walk OoB with the Ball. What do you have?

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

A1 makes a FG. B1 takes the Ball completely OoB and is immediately Guarded by A1; the T starts a Five Second Count when B1 takes his position OoB with the Ball. B2, who is Inbounds starts toward B1 to become the Thrower and B1 tosses him the Ball and B2 catches the Ball while he is still at least three steps Inbounds as proceeds to walk OoB with the Ball. What do you have?

MTD, Sr.

An official who prematurely started a five-second count.

I passed on a potential violation tonight. Inner city girls team getting throttled by 20 in the second half. No press, girl has ball at disposal OOB after a made basket and I start my count. She hands the ball inbounds to a teammate who she wanted to be the thrower. Teammate with ball inbounds steps OOB and throws in the ball. Winning teams fans went nuts and started yelling how this isn’t 3rd grade anymore, blah blah blah. Technically a violation but I was ok passing on this one. Anything to wind up those fans (notorious for being bad).

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

An official who prematurely started a five-second count.

1) When is the Five Second Count to begin? When the Ball is at the Disposal of the Throwing Team.

2) What is one of the ways for the Ball to be at the Disposal of the Throwing Team? When a Player of the Throwing Team has PC of the Ball and is completely Out-of-Bounds.

3) A1's FGA is successful. B1 takes possession of the Ball and then takes the Ball and positions himself completely Out-of-Bounds behind Team B's Backcourt End Line. When is the Ball at Team B's Disposal? RULING: When B1 positions himself completely Out-of-Bounds behind Team B's Backcourt End Line. Also, see Item (1) above.

MTD, Sr.