Throw-In, or Not?

[bob jenkins]

A scores a basket. B1 and the ball are out-of-bounds.

Under what circumstances, if any, may B1 release the ball such that B2 possesses the ball inbounds and have it NOT count as an throw-in (so that B2 can carry the ball back OOB and then complete a throw-in)?

For example, can B1 bat the ball to B2? Can B1 hold the ball and direct it to B2? What if it's obvious to everyone that B2 is *supposed* to be the inbounder? Does any of that matter?

Or, does B1 always *become* the inbounder, and the play described is a violation?

[cmcramer]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A scores a basket. B1 and the ball are out-of-bounds.

Under what circumstances, if any, may B1 release the ball such that B2 possesses the ball inbounds and have it NOT count as an throw-in (so that B2 can carry the ball back OOB and then complete a throw-in)?

For example, can B1 bat the ball to B2? Can B1 hold the ball and direct it to B2? What if it's obvious to everyone that B2 is *supposed* to be the inbounder? Does any of that matter?

Or, does B1 always *become* the inbounder, and the play described is a violation?

B1 releases a 'pop-fly' pass....in mid flight Team B calls a Time Out....B2 catches/possesses ball....after time-out B2 carries ball oob and completes throw-in.

I know it's not right, just trying to be funny...like BillyMac.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by cmcramer

I know it's not right, just trying to be funny...like BillyMac.

You are both trying. Very trying.

[Nevadaref]

An obvious underhand toss to B2 who is near the end line and walking out of bounds. If B1 did that, I wouldn’t whistle a violation. The intent would be clear to me that the team wants B2 to inbound.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

An obvious underhand toss to B2 who is near the end line and walking out of bounds. If B1 did that, I wouldn’t whistle a violation. The intent would be clear to me that the team wants B2 to inbound.

That gets to the crux of this philosophical /theoretical discussion.

Is any "propelling" of the ball (I am trying NOT to use rule book terms) of the ball for OOB to IB a throw-in pass, or do we need to determine whether it's with"intentto get the ball in play (that's a rule book term) so as to advance toward and score a goal."

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A scores a basket. B1 and the ball are out-of-bounds.

Under what circumstances, if any, may B1 release the ball such that B2 possesses the ball inbounds and have it NOT count as an throw-in (so that B2 can carry the ball back OOB and then complete a throw-in)?

For example, can B1 bat the ball to B2? Can B1 hold the ball and direct it to B2? What if it's obvious to everyone that B2 is *supposed* to be the inbounder? Does any of that matter?

Or, does B1 always *become* the inbounder, and the play described is a violation?

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

An obvious underhand toss to B2 who is near the end line and walking out of bounds. If B1 did that, I wouldn’t whistle a violation. The intent would be clear to me that the team wants B2 to inbound.

Originally Posted by Freddy

4-42-1: The thrower is the player who attempts to make a throw-in.
4-42-3: The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.
7-6-2: The throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.

Other than the reasonable discretion employed on a lower-level game, I'm trying to put all these together to come up with a reason not to call a throw-in violation.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

That gets to the crux of this philosophical /theoretical discussion.

Is any "propelling" of the ball (I am trying NOT to use rule book terms) of the ball for OOB to IB a throw-in pass, or do we need to determine whether it's with"intentto get the ball in play (that's a rule book term) so as to advance toward and score a goal."

Freddy has given us the Rule citations to tell us what we have. B1 has PC of the Ball and is completely Out-of-Bounds. That means that the Ball is at Disposal of Team B and the Five-Second Count should have started.

Below JrHS I can possibly see cutting B1 some slack, but JrHS and above, Team B's Throw-in ended when it touched B2 and one of two things can happen as B2 moves toward the End Line. 1) B2 will commit a Traveling Violation first, or 2) B2 will cause the Ball to go OoB. In either case, Team B has committed a Violation and Team A will receive the Ball for a Designated Spot Throw-in nearest the Spot of the Violation.

MTD, Sr.

[thumpferee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

An obvious underhand toss to B2 who is near the end line and walking out of bounds. If B1 did that, I wouldn’t whistle a violation. The intent would be clear to me that the team wants B2 to inbound.

^This

Not even necessarily an underhand toss.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

A1 makes a FG. B1 takes the Ball completely OoB and is immediately Guarded by A1; the T starts a Five Second Count when B1 takes his position OoB with the Ball. B2, who is Inbounds starts toward B1 to become the Thrower and B1 tosses him the Ball and B2 catches the Ball while he is still at least three steps Inbounds as proceeds to walk OoB with the Ball. What do you have?

MTD, Sr.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

An obvious underhand toss to B2 who is near the end line and walking out of bounds. If B1 did that, I wouldn’t whistle a violation. The intent would be clear to me that the team wants B2 to inbound.

I have bigger fish to fry in every game so I will not nitpick at this. But rules are pretty clear. B1 picks up ball or it’s in his vicinity/ at disposal...count starts. That’s just the rule. He tosses it to B2 inbounds..B2 can pass it to someone else without going OB to do it.
Again, if it’s bang bang that close I’m not going to make a call just to prove I know the rule. On the other hand I don’t like rewarding dumbness...This is something taught in 3rd grade...

[Raymond]

JV and above; high level AAU/rec ball: I can't see a situation where B1 is entirely OOB and I would allow those actions. I think it should be incumbent for coaches to properly train their players not to interfere with the ball if they are not supposed to be the thrower-in after a made basket.

Lower, less competitive levels, I would give them a mulligan.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by Raymond

JV and above; high level AAU/rec ball: I can't see a situation where B1 is entirely OOB and I would allow those actions. I think it should be incumbent for coaches to properly train their players not to interfere with the ball if they are not supposed to be the thrower-in after a made basket.

Lower, less competitive levels, I would give them a mulligan.

I think it depends on what the defense is doing as well. If there is no press, and there is no doubt that B2 is the planned in-bounder, then I'm probably going to let this go. If there's a press on however, I agree with you, I don't see a scenario where I don't call it, I think that puts the defense at a disadvantage

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

A scores a basket. B1 and the ball are out-of-bounds.

Under what circumstances, if any, may B1 release the ball such that B2 possesses the ball inbounds and have it NOT count as an throw-in (so that B2 can carry the ball back OOB and then complete a throw-in)?

For example, can B1 bat the ball to B2? Can B1 hold the ball and direct it to B2? What if it's obvious to everyone that B2 is *supposed* to be the inbounder? Does any of that matter?

Or, does B1 always *become* the inbounder, and the play described is a violation?

4-42-1: The thrower is the player who attempts to make a throw-in.
4-42-3: The throw-in and the throw-in count begin when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to it.
7-6-2: The throw-in begins when the ball is at the disposal of a player of the team entitled to the throw-in.

Other than the reasonable discretion employed on a lower-level game, I'm trying to put all these together to come up with a reason not to call a throw-in violation.