Requesting timeout on layup situation???

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The Ball became Dead retroactively to the moment the TO was actually requested.

Let's see. This should be easy enough to check.

6-7 The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:
ART. 1 A goal, as in 5-1, is made.
ART. 2 It is apparent the free throw will not be successful on a:
a. Free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.
b. Free throw which is to be followed by a throw-in.
ART. 3 A held ball occurs, or the ball lodges between the backboard
and ring or comes to rest on the flange.
ART. 4 A player-control or team-control foul occurs.
ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown.
ART. 6 Time expires for a quarter or extra period.
ART. 7 A foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs.
ART. 8 A free-throw violation by the throwing team occurs.
ART. 9 A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs.

Hmmm.

I can't find, "Coach requesting a timeout when his/her player has player control", on the list.

Odd?

I can find, "An official's whistle is blown", on the list which could be an official's response to granting a timeout when a coach's player has player control.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Let's see. This should be easy enough to check.



6-7 The ball becomes dead, or remains dead, when:

ART. 1 A goal, as in 5-1, is made.

ART. 2 It is apparent the free throw will not be successful on a:

a. Free throw which is to be followed by another free throw.

b. Free throw which is to be followed by a throw-in.

ART. 3 A held ball occurs, or the ball lodges between the backboard

and ring or comes to rest on the flange.

ART. 4 A player-control or team-control foul occurs.

ART. 5 An official’s whistle is blown.

ART. 6 Time expires for a quarter or extra period.

ART. 7 A foul, other than player-control or team-control, occurs.

ART. 8 A free-throw violation by the throwing team occurs.

ART. 9 A violation, as in 9-2 through 13, occurs.



Hmmm.



I can't find, "Coach requesting a timeout when his/her player has player control", on the list.



Odd?



I can find, "An official's whistle is blown", on the list which could be an official's response to granting a timeout when a coach's player has player control.

Good point, but are you saying you wouldn't allow the team in my scenario to run the endline on the throw in following the time out?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

...but are you saying you wouldn't allow the team in my scenario to run the endline on the throw in following the time out?

I will always allow a team that has the privilege of running the endline to run the endline, but I'm going to administer the throwin at a spot predetermined by the positions of where my partner and I were when the timeout was granted.

If the throwin had already been made when the timeout was granted, I'm giving it to them at a designated spot. If there's some question in my mind regarding exactly when it was granted, I will allow them to run the endline.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

...

Sooo, you see A1 with the ball, then hear and see A-HC request a time-out, and just as you blow the whistle, A1 has just released the ball on a try that goes in his basket--how are you adjudicating that scenario?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Let's see. This should be easy enough to check. I can find, "An official's whistle is blown", on the list which could be an official's response to granting a timeout when a coach's player has player control.

I sure hope that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. doesn't freeze to death in his sub-freezing, Toledo, Ohio attic checking this out.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

... you see A1 with the ball, then hear and see A-HC request a time-out, and just as you blow the whistle, A1 has just released the ball on a try that goes in his basket--how are you adjudicating that scenario?

Ball is released and in flight before I sound my whistle (making it a dead ball) granting the head coach's request for a time out while his player has player control?

6-7 EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when: Article 5 (official's whistle is blown) occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.

The ball isn't dead, count the basket, grant the timeout, run the endline after the timeout.

By rule it's the whistle that makes the ball dead, not the act of granting.

One of the rare exceptions to Basketball Rule Fundamental 16, the official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Ball is released and in flight before I sound my whistle (making it a dead ball) granting the head coach's request for a time out while his player has player control?

6-7 EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborne shooter returns to the floor, when: Article 5 (official's whistle is blown) occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.

The ball isn't dead, count the basket, grant the timeout, run the endline after the timeout.

By rule it's the whistle that makes the ball dead, not the act of granting.

The rare exception to Basketball Rule Fundamental 16, the official’s whistle seldom causes the ball to become dead (it is already dead).

And if the shot is missed you are going to the AP arrow, correct?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

And if the shot is missed you are going to the AP arrow, correct?

I believe so. No team control (when the unsuccessful try ended). By rule, what other choice do I have?

Nice followup question Raymond.

Are you a teacher?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Raymond

And if the shot is missed you are going to the AP arrow, correct?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I believe so.

Nice followup question Raymond.

Are you a teacher?

Based on your application in the play where the ball goes into the basket, you would therefore have to use the AP arrow if the ball does not go in the basket.

I'm just imagining the fun you would have in a game where 8 seconds is remaining, Team A is losing by 2 points, AP arrow to Team B, time-out request, shot released, whistle blows, A1's "try" is an airball and is caught in the paint by A2.

You would then be sending the teams to their bench areas for Team A's time-out followed by giving the ball to Team B after the time-out due to the AP arrow.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I'm just imagining the fun you would have in a game where 8 seconds is remaining, Team A is losing by 2 points, AP arrow to Team B, time-out request, shot released, whistle blows, A1's "try" is an airball and is caught in the paint by A2. You would then be sending the teams to their bench areas for Team A's time-out followed by giving the ball to Team B after the time-out due to the AP arrow.

I knew that you were eventually going to go there, but when my assigner calls me the next morning, the rulebook is my friend. I hope that I decide to call him before he calls me.

Also, I'm not against bending some rules for the purpose of good game management. Especially when I can get together with my partner to discuss what "really happened" (wink ,wink).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I knew that you were eventually going to go there, but when my assigner calls me the next morning, the rulebook is my friend. I hope that I decide to call him before he calls me.
...

And you would be technically correct. I know that all the supervisors for whom I work would expect the crew to rule the time-out occurred before the shot was released.

My most accomplished supervisor is my HS assignor. His favorite phrase is "I want officials who make good decisions".

Notice, I never tell other officials how to handle situations. I always say either what I would do (and why) or what my supervisors expect.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I never tell other officials how to handle situations. I always say either what I would do (and why) or what my supervisors expect.

Agree. I do the same thing, here on the Forum, and in real life. When in Rome ...

I also realize that there is one way to answer written test questions, and maybe another way to handle a situation on the court.

I've been around the block a few times and have been to several rodeos, as I guess Raymond has, maybe even few more times around the block, and maybe even a few more rodeos for Raymond.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Sooo, you see A1 with the ball, then hear and see A-HC request a time-out, and just as you blow the whistle, A1 has just released the ball on a try that goes in his basket--how are you adjudicating that scenario?

Grant Team A's TO request because there was PC by A1 when A-HC made the TO request. Any action after the request was made is not relevant unless it is a Intentional or Flagrant Foul.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Grant Team A's TO request because there was PC by A1 when A-HC made the TO request. Any action after the request was made is not relevant unless it is a Intentional or Flagrant Foul.

By rule, the ball doesn't actually become dead until the whistle is blown by the official. There is no provision in the dead ball rule for the ball to become dead at either the request, or at the granting, only for an official's whistle. Everything is relevant until the whistle is sounded.

We can certainly debate whether, or not, the official should verify that the ball is still in player control after verifying that the request is being made by the head coach.

That specific issue is certainly up for debate. But please let's not use that specific issue to muddy the water in regard to when the ball actually becomes dead.

We cannot debate when the ball becomes dead. That's already in black and white in the rulebook. It becomes dead when the whistle sounds, there is no such thing as a "retroactive dead ball". The ball neither becomes dead at the request, nor at the granting, unless either happens simultaneously with the whistle.

You can look it up (Casey Stengel).

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

By rule, the ball doesn't actually become dead until the whistle is blown by the official. There is no provision in the dead ball rule for the ball to become dead at either the request, or at the granting, only for an official's whistle. Everything is relevant until the whistle is sounded.

We can certainly debate whether, or not, the official should verify that the ball is still in player control after verifying that the request is being made by the head coach.

That specific issue is certainly up for debate. But please let's not use that specific issue to muddy the water in regard to when the ball actually becomes dead.

We cannot debate when the ball becomes dead. That's already in black and white in the rulebook. It becomes dead when the whistle sounds, there is no such thing as a "retroactive dead ball". The ball neither becomes dead at the request, nor at the granting, unless either happens simultaneously with the whistle.

You can look it up (Casey Stengel).

You can debate it or not debate it but this is one of those examples of the rule says one thing but the way it is done is another. We had a long discussion about this a while back as it related to the player going out of bounds asking for timeout. He asked for timeout a split second before he lands out of bounds, but he lands before the whistle. Do you give him the timeout or call the violation? A strict reading of the rule says one thing but the way things are says another.