Odd timeout situation

[Cav0]

Hello everyone, had an odd situation in a game that was relayed to me through a family member and being someone who's always been interested in the rules the situation was presented to me and having read this board off and on for the last couple years I figured you all would have the best grasp of what could/should was/wasn't done.

So here the story as I've heard it. JV Boys game, 4 point game, home team trailing. Still early in the 4th quarter and the home team calls and is granted timeout at a stoppage in play with the ball to be inbounded by the visitors next. At this point a full timeout is asked for and reported to the table and the time is started on the scoreboard (One where you can see the timeout clock visible during the timeout). At this point the reporting offcial moves to the table and asks about remaining timeouts, both teams had 2 or 3, including 30 second timeouts, left.

After this the official sees that the visiting team is out of the timeout and begins blowing the whistle to try to encourage the home team and at the 30 second mark (ticking down from 60 on the scoreboard) announces that it was only a 30 second timeout and puts the ball in play at the disposal of the visitors who quickly move up the floor for an uncontested lay-up much to the dismay of the home coach.

As the story has been told to me his partner was still around the opposite 3 point line for the timeout and hadn't realized what had happened until the ball was already in play and in the front court. Play continued as H came quickly out of the timeout at that point. Some discussion ensued at the next dead ball but the play stood as it was called at the time which was a 2-point basket for V.

So the question is, once one official has put the ball at V's disposal following a timeout without allowing all of the time for the timeout to elapse is there anything that can be done to correct or were they stuck at that point? Thanks for reading the new guy and I appreciate your responses.

[just another ref]

If my partner puts the ball in play early, that is to say, I have something going on, (timeout not over, reporting a foul) I have no problem blowing the play dead, no matter what is going on.

[APG]

What JAR said...if for some reason, my partner makes the ball live while I have to do something (subbing players/counting/getting into position), I'm blowing it dead.

I don't even understand why the official put the ball at the disposal of the visitors without giving the home team an opportunity to get out of the huddle...especially after they were informed a full timeout was taken then subsequently shorten. Probably has to do with it being a JV game and probably having newish officials.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Cav0

Hello everyone, had an odd situation in a game that was relayed to me through a family member and being someone who's always been interested in the rules the situation was presented to me and having read this board off and on for the last couple years I figured you all would have the best grasp of what could/should was/wasn't done.

So here the story as I've heard it. JV Boys game, 4 point game, home team trailing. Still early in the 4th quarter and the home team calls and is granted timeout at a stoppage in play with the ball to be inbounded by the visitors next. At this point a full timeout is asked for and reported to the table and the time is started on the scoreboard (One where you can see the timeout clock visible during the timeout). At this point the reporting offcial moves to the table and asks about remaining timeouts, both teams had 2 or 3, including 30 second timeouts, left.

After this the official sees that the visiting team is out of the timeout and begins blowing the whistle to try to encourage the home team and at the 30 second mark (ticking down from 60 on the scoreboard) announces that it was only a 30 second timeout and puts the ball in play at the disposal of the visitors who quickly move up the floor for an uncontested lay-up much to the dismay of the home coach.

As the story has been told to me his partner was still around the opposite 3 point line for the timeout and hadn't realized what had happened until the ball was already in play and in the front court. Play continued as H came quickly out of the timeout at that point. Some discussion ensued at the next dead ball but the play stood as it was called at the time which was a 2-point basket for V.

So the question is, once one official has put the ball at V's disposal following a timeout without allowing all of the time for the timeout to elapse is there anything that can be done to correct or were they stuck at that point? Thanks for reading the new guy and I appreciate your responses.

This is why the mechanic includes the officials communicating how long the TO is. If one brings in play early, the other should most definitely kill the play to keep things right.

This is also why I like the mechanic of standing at different spots for different lengths of timeouts. If you stood at the 60-second spot, and bring in play after just 30 seconds, your referee sense should tingle.

[Cav0]

Agreed from my point of view. Should have been caught before it got to that point, but if you hadn't caught it before V had scored, would you just "wipe-out" what had happened and reset the clock if any time had been run?

Side question, let's say both officials make this mistake and put the ball in play with H still in the timeout huddle. Would H have any recourse to say that the ball shouldn't have been put in play using the book or timer's knowledge as evidence? And if the officials agreed could they fix the mistake in someway.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cav0

Side question, let's say both officials make this mistake and put the ball in play with H still in the timeout huddle. Would H have any recourse to say that the ball shouldn't have been put in play using the book or timer's knowledge as evidence? And if the officials agreed could they fix the mistake in someway.

No. But this whole scenario seems unbelievable to me. I've never heard of an official arbitrarily changing a TO from full to 30. It makes no sense.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Cav0

Agreed from my point of view. Should have been caught before it got to that point, but if you hadn't caught it before V had scored, would you just "wipe-out" what had happened and reset the clock if any time had been run?

Side question, let's say both officials make this mistake and put the ball in play with H still in the timeout huddle. Would H have any recourse to say that the ball shouldn't have been put in play using the book or timer's knowledge as evidence? And if the officials agreed could they fix the mistake in someway.

No, you cannot "wipe-out" what happened. The officials will just have to eat crow.

They had better never make that mistake again!

The underlying solution is to communicate, communicate, communicate and to be aware!

[Cav0]

I agree it sounds implausible. I asked several clarifying questions when the story was told to me. This is only how it was told to me so I can't guarantee it being 100% accurate (Well it is to the person who told me the story, but we know that there is always more than one side to the story).

The theory was that he got confused when communicating with the table about remaining timeouts and heard something about remaining 30 second timeouts and mistakenly applied that on this timeout.

[RobbyinTN]

On a 60 second TO, the first horn would not even have blown at the 30 second mark so not sure why the official thought it was a 30 second TO. This story sounds "fishy" to me - I think whoever has told you the story has left something out or misunderstood something themselves.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by RobbyinTN

On a 60 second TO, the first horn would not even have blown at the 30 second mark so not sure why the official thought it was a 30 second TO. This story sounds "fishy" to me - I think whoever has told you the story has left something out or misunderstood something themselves.

As was mentioned, if the officials were somewhat new, and they heard "30 second timeout" from the table (for a different reason), and then saw the clock ticking down, they likely thought that they were doing the right thing by getting the game going. It certainly sounds like a newbie mistake.

[RobbyinTN]

But would the administering official remember what he indicated?

Maybe it was a couple of newbies but for both of them to make the mistake just seems odd. As someone else said, if (1) you give the correct mechanic for the 60 second TO and (2) stand in the correct location for the 60 second TO, this helps you not make mistakes like this. Whenever a coach requests a TO, once I know if it is a 30 or 60, I inform the other team's coach of the length (verification #1), inform the table with the proper mechanic (verification #2), indicate to my partner(s) the type (30 or 60) and throw in location (verification #3), stand in the proper location (verification #4),and if there is no clock countdown, I also mentally do the countdown myself (verification #5). This pretty much eliminates any possibility of cutting it short (unless both teams are ready to play prior to the TO expiring.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

No. But this whole scenario seems unbelievable to me. I've never heard of an official arbitrarily changing a TO from full to 30. It makes no sense.

Agreed. There is something missing from this story, and that's the perspective of the actual officials of the game. This is secondhand, rather thirdhand, information from fans. Doesn't smell right at all.

[Treeguy]

What about making eye contact with your partner(s) before putting the ball in play? I always look at my partner(s) and they give me a nod or point to me (and visa-versa) and then blow the eady whistle. If his partner was not ready, the ball should never have been put in play. Does smell a little fishy.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Cav0

The theory was that he got confused when communicating with the table about remaining timeouts and heard something about remaining 30 second timeouts and mistakenly applied that on this timeout.

My theory is there's more to the story that's missing that what is here.

[Cav0]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

My theory is there's more to the story that's missing that what is here.

Agreed, and unfortunately I don't really have any way of getting hold of any more info about the situation. I'll see if it was taped, but knowing the school involved it is unlikely that a JV game was recorded. Believe me, I was/am as incredulous about this story as you all.