When to start 10 second count?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

Rule 9-8 says: A player shall not be, nor may his/her team be, in continuous control of the ball which is in his/her backcourt for 10 seconds.

I am having an absolute brain freeze. Cortex won't work...except to type. On a throw-in to the BC, the count is not started until there is player control in the BC. What citation explains that the 10 second count is started with player control and not simply when the ball is in the BC? (b/c there is still team control during a throw-in)

Example: A1 releases the ball on a throw-in to the BC and the ball slowly rolls in the BC for 4 seconds without being touched. A2 gets the ball and the official begins the 10-second count. Why does the 10-second count not start when the ball is inbounds rolling untouched, after all Team A had team control?

I know the rule, just can't find where it is documented. Or does this fall under the reasoning that there is no documentation needed because TC on a throw-in only applies to foul situations? I just can't remember. Thought there was something specific.

Your last point is the reason....there is only team control on a throwin for fouls. Real and full team control only begins when an inbounds player gains control.

[CJP]

Did a "veteran" official make a false claim about a shot clock reset situation and edit it? Just wondering if I am losing my mind because I just read up on it and at least in my state, he would be wrong. Proves my point that no matter how "basic" a rule should be, it is okay to discuss sometimes.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by CJP

Did a "veteran" official make a false claim about a shot clock reset situation and edit it?

Not a false claim, just an old situation that is no longer valid, making it confusing, which is why I deleted it.

Sorry if I confused anybody.

As the young'uns say, "My bad" (do they still say that?).

[CJP]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Not a false claim, just an old situation that is no longer valid, making it confusing, which is why I deleted it.

Sorry if I confused anybody.

As the young'uns say, "My bad" (do they still say that?).

Let's make sure we are talking about the same thing. Does a new shot clock start on a touch or control in a rebounding situation?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by CJP

Does a new shot clock start on a touch or control in a rebounding situation?

I sincerely apologize for any confusion, while my post (shot clock operator improperly synching to visible ten second count) was relevant, it was confusing since the shot clock/ten second rules have changed since the situation that I posted about occurred.

Connecticut Private Prep School Rules (not necessarily the same as NCAA)
30-second Shot Clock
Used for 10-second backcourt violation. However, when the shot clock is turnedoff, the official must use a visual count.
During a throw-in, the shot clock starts when the ball is legally touched by any player.
Throw-in by A-1 Ruling - Shot clock and game clock start when the ball is legally touched inbounds.

(I only posted the rules relevant to this situation. There are additional rules regarding kicks, punches, held balls, trys, rim, etc.)

[CJP]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I sincerely apologize for any confusion, while my post was relevant, it was confusing since the shot clock/ten second rules have hanged since the situation that posted about occurred.

Connecticut Private Prep School Rules (not necessarily the same as NCAA)
30-second Shot Clock
Used for 10-second backcourt violation. However, when the shot clock is turnedoff, the official must use a visual count.
During a throw-in, the shot clock starts when the ball is legally touched by any player.
Throw-in by A-1 Ruling - Shot clock and game clock start when the ball is legally touched inbounds.

(I only posted the rules relevant to this situation. There are additional rules regarding kicks, held balls, trys, rim, etc.)

My memory of your post was that you specifically told a shot clock operator to start the shot clock, on a rebounding situation, when the ball was touched (tipped).

This is exactly why no one should be afraid to ask a question, no matter how basic or experience level.

[deecee]

shot clocks restart after resetting once there is clear player control established. However the exception would be on an inbounds once the inbounds is over...so doesn't require PC. now ive confused myself.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by CJP

My memory of your post was that you specifically told a shot clock operator to reset the shot clock, on a rebounding situation, when the ball was touched (tipped).

Must have a poor memory (like me). As much as I hate to repost it, here's the original post before I deleted it:

I had to tell a shot clock operator (prep school game) not to wait for control to start the shot clock (after a made basket), start at just a touch, while I didn't start my ten second count until control was established, which could vary by a few seconds. Not being an NCAA official, and being fairly unfamiliar with shot clocks, I learned that on the Forum (it wasn't on our Connecticut prep school rules handout).

Note: This was before relevant rule changes, when we were still using visible ten second counts. I was trying to point out that some may confuse touch, team control, and player control in counting situations.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Your last point is the reason....there is only team control on a throwin for fouls. Real and full team control only begins when an inbounds player gains control.

I know this is correct, but where is the rule on team control on a throw-in only for fouls?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

I know this is correct, but where is the rule on team control on a throw-in only for fouls?

Good question, but you (know you are) asking the wrong person.

It's in the various POEs. FED could change that. No one here can.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

... where is the rule on team control on a throw-in only for fouls?

That's the $64,000.00 question.

Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2017-18
2. Team control, throw-in. The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

Now, how are those without access to a 2017-18 rulebook supposed to know this?

By the oral tradition of young basketball officials sitting around a campfire listening to stories about old Points of Emphasis from old, grizzled, veteran officials?



That's Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. on the left, back when he had a full head of hair.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

2011-12 BASKETBALL RULES CHANGES
Several definitions were changed to reflect that team control will now exist during a throw-in when the thrower-in has the ball at his/her disposal. The change primarily affects how foul penalties will be administered.

"Primarily" not "solely" so what else does it affect?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

"Primarily" not "solely" so what else does it affect?

The flow of questions on discussion forums.

[ilyazhito]

Why not change the NFHS 10-second rule to match NCAA? Both sets of rules both start team control on the throw-in, so why not start the 10-second count on team control inbounds, rather than player control? This would render this entire discussion thread moot, as well as ease the inevitable transition to a high school shot clock.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Why not change the NFHS 10-second rule to match NCAA? Both sets of rules both start team control on the throw-in, so why not start the 10-second count on team control inbounds, rather than player control? This would render this entire discussion thread moot, as well as ease the inevitable transition to a high school shot clock.

Not correct. Team control in NFHS, for all but one purpose, starts with player control inbounds....the same time as the 10 count starts. College used to be the same. They changed to make the shot clock administration easier.