When to start 10 second count?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by CJP

Does a new shot clock start on a touch or control in a rebounding situation?

I sincerely apologize for any confusion, while my post (shot clock operator improperly synching to visible ten second count) was relevant, it was confusing since the shot clock/ten second rules have changed since the situation that I posted about occurred.

Connecticut Private Prep School Rules (not necessarily the same as NCAA)
30-second Shot Clock
Used for 10-second backcourt violation. However, when the shot clock is turnedoff, the official must use a visual count.
During a throw-in, the shot clock starts when the ball is legally touched by any player.
Throw-in by A-1 Ruling - Shot clock and game clock start when the ball is legally touched inbounds.

(I only posted the rules relevant to this situation. There are additional rules regarding kicks, punches, held balls, trys, rim, etc.)

[CJP]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I sincerely apologize for any confusion, while my post was relevant, it was confusing since the shot clock/ten second rules have hanged since the situation that posted about occurred.

Connecticut Private Prep School Rules (not necessarily the same as NCAA)
30-second Shot Clock
Used for 10-second backcourt violation. However, when the shot clock is turnedoff, the official must use a visual count.
During a throw-in, the shot clock starts when the ball is legally touched by any player.
Throw-in by A-1 Ruling - Shot clock and game clock start when the ball is legally touched inbounds.

(I only posted the rules relevant to this situation. There are additional rules regarding kicks, held balls, trys, rim, etc.)

My memory of your post was that you specifically told a shot clock operator to start the shot clock, on a rebounding situation, when the ball was touched (tipped).

This is exactly why no one should be afraid to ask a question, no matter how basic or experience level.

[deecee]

shot clocks restart after resetting once there is clear player control established. However the exception would be on an inbounds once the inbounds is over...so doesn't require PC. now ive confused myself.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by CJP

My memory of your post was that you specifically told a shot clock operator to reset the shot clock, on a rebounding situation, when the ball was touched (tipped).

Must have a poor memory (like me). As much as I hate to repost it, here's the original post before I deleted it:

I had to tell a shot clock operator (prep school game) not to wait for control to start the shot clock (after a made basket), start at just a touch, while I didn't start my ten second count until control was established, which could vary by a few seconds. Not being an NCAA official, and being fairly unfamiliar with shot clocks, I learned that on the Forum (it wasn't on our Connecticut prep school rules handout).

Note: This was before relevant rule changes, when we were still using visible ten second counts. I was trying to point out that some may confuse touch, team control, and player control in counting situations.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

I've confused myself.

No you haven't. Blame me.

[CJP]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

As much as I hate to repost it, here's the original post before I deleted it:

I had to tell a shot clock operator (prep school game) not to wait for control to start the shot clock (after a made basket), start at just a touch, while I didn't start my ten second count until control was established, which could vary by a few seconds. Not being an NCAA official, and being fairly unfamiliar with shot clocks, I learned that on the Forum (it wasn't on our Connecticut prep school rules handout).

Note: This was before relevant rule changes, when we were still using visible ten second counts. I was trying to point out that some may confuse touch, team control, and player control in counting situations.

I am not going to argue that you changed the "(after a made basket)" part but the fact you had to tell a shot clock operator this is very strange if you did not change it. I have gone through shot clock implementation in two states and I never had to work that out with an operator. Almost every issue had to do with the reset after a missed shot.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by CJP

I am not going to argue that you changed the "(after a made basket)" part but the fact you had to tell a shot clock operator this is very strange if you did not change it.

I may have added "after a made basket" to clarify the situation.

It happened several years ago, before shot clock/ten second rules were changed for Connecticut prep schools, we were still using visible ten second counts (starting with control, like NFHS rules), and I believed that the shot clock operator was delaying the shot clock start until I started my visible ten second count, it was very apparent after a poor throwin ricocheted off of several players before control was established.

Connecticut private prep schools use hybrid NCAA/NFHS rules that were not very well documented. It took me (who doesn't know NCAA rules very well) a ton of effort (and two years) to get the rule changed from three feet (back) to six feet for girls closely guarded. Private prep schools are always a dollar short and a day late when it comes to rule changes. This makes it hard for our NCAA guys to work their games (do I use new NCAA rules or old NCAA rules?) especially with little written documentation (it's better now). And the rules often change from school to school, some schools allow pregame dunking, some don't, we have to ask.

[CJP]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

I may have added "after a made basket" to clarify the situation.

It happened several years ago, before shot clock/ten second rules were changed for Connecticut prep schools, we were still using visible ten second counts (starting with control, like NFHS rules), and I believed that the shot clock operator was delaying the shot clock start until I started my visible ten second count, it was very apparent after a poor throwin ricocheted off of several players before control was established.

Connecticut private prep schools use hybrid NCAA/NFHS rules that were not very well documented. It took me (who doesn't know NCAA rules very well) a ton of effort (and two years) to get the rule changed from three feet (back) to six feet for girls closely guarded. Private prep schools are always a dollar short and a day late when it comes to rule changes. This makes it hard for our NCAA guys to work their games (do I use new NCAA rules or old NCAA rules?) especially with little written documentation (it's better now). And the rules often change from school to school, some schools allow pregame dunking, some don't, we have to ask.

This does not make much sense. The shot clock operator must have very confused when there was a throw-in in the front court.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

shot clocks restart after resetting once there is clear player control established. However the exception would be on an inbounds once the inbounds is over...so doesn't require PC. now ive confused myself.

That is if you are using NCAA Men's rules for sure, but that was not always the case. And since we do not have a NF shot clock rule, I would assume that each state that uses a shot clock has some variations of when the shot clock is used. I would think logically that would be the application, but we have seen stranger things.

Peace

[deecee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

That is if you are using NCAA Men's rules for sure, but that was not always the case. And since we do not have a NF shot clock rule, I would assume that each state that uses a shot clock has some variations of when the shot clock is used. I would think logically that would be the application, but we have seen stranger things.

Peace

Yes NCAA-mens. And I officiated HS in 2 shot clock states (CA and NY), and this is how we applied the clock logic. Truthfully it's a much better game versus non-shot clock ones IMO.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by CJP

This does not make much sense. The shot clock operator must have very confused when there was a throw-in in the front court.

Not really. The frontcourt throwin is always accompanied by a chop the time in signal (no such signal after a made basket throwin). Just touching the ball will do it for both starting the game clock and stating the shot clock, with no visible or nonvisible ten second count (unless it goes into the backcourt) to be out of synch (in the olden days before the rule change) with the shot clock.

The shot clock operator (back then) was confused by a throwin after a made basket, with no chop the time in signal, and (incorrectly) waiting for me to start my visible (back then) ten second count (control) to start the shot clock.

I've had really confused shot clock operators starting the shot clock as a the ball goes though the basket.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... we do not have a NF shot clock rule, I would assume that each state that uses a shot clock has some variations of when the shot clock is used.

Correct. Connecticut private prep schools have changed shot clock rules at least once.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

Yes NCAA-mens. And I officiated HS in 2 shot clock states (CA and NY), and this is how we applied the clock logic. Truthfully it's a much better game versus non-shot clock ones IMO.

I have worked a couple of high school tournaments with the shot clock. Not something I am a huge fan of at that level. Often times there were just bad shots taken or it was never a factor because of the up and down nature of the teams playing. I just see many problems with the table people either resetting the clock too soon or not knowing when to start it properly. But I do believe it will come anyway and we will have a new normal of shot clock mistakes and issues.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have worked a couple of high school tournaments with the shot clock. Not something I am a huge fan of at that level. Often times there were just bad shots taken or it was never a factor because of the up and down nature of the teams playing. I just see many problems with the table people either resetting the clock too soon or not knowing when to start it properly. But I do believe it will come anyway and we will have a new normal of shot clock mistakes and issues.

Important words from a veteran, highly respected official who has worked high level college games with a shot clock, high level high school games with no shot clock, and high level high school games with a shot clock.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You don't have to go back to any case book. A basic reading and understanding of the written rules (on backcourt violations and team control) tells you everything you need to make the ruling.

I was waiting for this answer. Now I don't need to post anything.

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