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Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 03:39pm
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Team Control Loose Ball Fouls

So I have had this situation come up 3 times this season and run into issues.
Situation: A1 in the front court passes to A2. The ball is deflected by B2. B2 has a clear path to the ball and is pushed or held by A2. Common foul on A2. Team B is in the Bonus.

First time I was a non calling official, partner signaled bonus prior to reporting and I went to him and asked, Did B2 obtain player control of the ball? Uh maybe, I think so. Later in the locker room, oh did you mean for team control because then we wouldn't have shot free-throws? Yea we should have gone OOB.

Second time, I am the calling official in the trail. Foul takes place in front of bench of team that was fouled.
Tweet - Blue ball sideline.
Lead, we are in the bonus.
Me, Team control foul blue ball sideline.
Lead, are you sure we are in the bonus. New lead old C is standing at the other end of the floor holding up 1 and 1.
Me, team control foul out of bounds sideline.
Coach what are you talking about I have never heard that before. Table I haven't see that before. Coach You guys either huh strange.

Third time, I am the calling official in the lead. Once again in front of the team who was fouled bench.
Tweet - black ball end line.
Coach - We are in the bonus
Me - Coach your player never had control of the ball it is a team control foul throw-in out of bounds.
Partner whoa whoa, it was a loose ball. Coach there was no player control foul.
Me - Team control had not ended it is a throw-in.
In the locker room at halftime. Did you understand the team control foul and why it was out of bounds. Partner "It was a loose ball team control had ended" Me - "when did team control end?" Partner - "When black tipped the ball". Me- "Team control does not end until a try, opponent player control, or the ball out of bounds. (I know that I stated the third part incorrectly as I should have said ball dead, shame on me.) Partner - That's not right we shoot those fouls all the time and they shoot them in NCAA. I don't think that's right. This was a veteran official.

My question comes as to how to efficiently handle these situations when they occur? Having a rules discussion with my partners standing in front of the coach who's team is being effected does not seem professional. How do I administer the correct ruling without having a drawn out conversation/argument with my partners. These were all Varsity Boys games with partners that I would consider experienced and mostly competent.

Last edited by sdoebler; Fri Jan 04, 2019 at 03:43pm.
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Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 03:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
So I have had this situation come up 3 times this season and run into issues.
Situation: A1 in the front court passes to A2. The ball is deflected by B2. B2 has a clear path to the ball and is pushed or held by A2. Common foul on A2. Team B is in the Bonus.

First time I was a non calling official, partner signaled bonus prior to reporting and I went to him and asked, Did B2 obtain player control of the ball? Uh maybe, I think so. Later in the locker room, oh did you mean for team control because then we wouldn't have shot free-throws? Yea we should have gone OOB.

Second time, I am the calling official in the trail. Foul takes place in front of bench of team that was fouled.
Tweet - Blue ball sideline.
Lead, we are in the bonus.
Me, Team control foul blue ball sideline.
Lead, are you sure we are in the bonus. New lead old C is standing at the other end of the floor holding up 1 and 1.
Me, team control foul out of bounds sideline.
Coach what are you talking about I have never heard that before. Table I haven't see that before. Coach You guys either huh strange.

Third time, I am the calling official in the lead. Once again in front of the team who was fouled bench.
Tweet - black ball end line.
Coach - We are in the bonus
Me - Coach your player never had control of the ball it is a team control foul throw-in out of bounds.
Partner whoa whoa, it was a loose ball. Coach there was no player control foul.
Me - Team control had not ended it is a throw-in.
In the locker room at halftime. Did you understand the team control foul and why it was out of bounds. Partner "It was a loose ball team control had ended" Me - "when did team control end?" Partner - "When black tipped the ball". Me- "Team control does not end until a try, opponent player control, or the ball out of bounds. (I know that I stated the third part incorrectly as I should have said ball dead, shame on me.) Partner - That's not right we shoot those fouls all the time and they shoot them in NCAA. I don't think that's right. This was a veteran official.

My question comes as to how to efficiently handle these situations when they occur? Having a rules discussion with my partners standing in front of the coach who's team is being effected does not seem professional. How do I administer the correct ruling without having a drawn out conversation/argument with my partners. These were all Varsity Boys games with partners that I would consider experienced and mostly competent.
No bonus during offensive fouls (team control or player control). When there are brief discussions like that during a game, get away from players/coaches, although someone should be able to see the players (for possibility of extra scuffling).

Side note: Sometimes I get scared working with "veteran" officials, not all but quite a few. Usually that means they think they know everything, are "set in their ways", are not up to date on new rule/case changes, are not open to learning/changing, and rarely study rule/case books. Iv'e seen a 30 year veteran award the ball, based on the AP, OOB to a team to start an OT, in a state tournament game.
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Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 03:54pm
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I'd start adding this to your pregame discussion since it seems to be a recurring issue with officials in your board/area.

Personally, my association has covered this some much the past couple of years so I haven't seen any confusion like you are describing. The only thing I'd say is that in your scenarios, both coaches and officials all seem to be talking together. If there is a discussion in game, I would try to pull my partner away from the coach and decide the correct administration. Then inform the coach/table once all officials have agreed (or in your case agreed to disagree and move on). I'm not having a discussion with my partner while the coach is listening in and chiming in.
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Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 03:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
So I have had this situation come up 3 times this season and run into issues.
Situation: A1 in the front court passes to A2. The ball is deflected by B2. B2 has a clear path to the ball and is pushed or held by A2. Common foul on A2. Team B is in the Bonus.

First time I was a non calling official, partner signaled bonus prior to reporting and I went to him and asked, Did B2 obtain player control of the ball? Uh maybe, I think so. Later in the locker room, oh did you mean for team control because then we wouldn't have shot free-throws? Yea we should have gone OOB.

Second time, I am the calling official in the trail. Foul takes place in front of bench of team that was fouled.
Tweet - Blue ball sideline.
Lead, we are in the bonus.
Me, Team control foul blue ball sideline.
Lead, are you sure we are in the bonus. New lead old C is standing at the other end of the floor holding up 1 and 1.
Me, team control foul out of bounds sideline.
Coach what are you talking about I have never heard that before. Table I haven't see that before. Coach You guys either huh strange.

Third time, I am the calling official in the lead. Once again in front of the team who was fouled bench.
Tweet - black ball end line.
Coach - We are in the bonus
Me - Coach your player never had control of the ball it is a team control foul throw-in out of bounds.
Partner whoa whoa, it was a loose ball. Coach there was no player control foul.
Me - Team control had not ended it is a throw-in.
In the locker room at halftime. Did you understand the team control foul and why it was out of bounds. Partner "It was a loose ball team control had ended" Me - "when did team control end?" Partner - "When black tipped the ball". Me- "Team control does not end until a try, opponent player control, or the ball out of bounds. (I know that I stated the third part incorrectly as I should have said ball dead, shame on me.) Partner - That's not right we shoot those fouls all the time and they shoot them in NCAA. I don't think that's right. This was a veteran official.

My question comes as to how to efficiently handle these situations when they occur? Having a rules discussion with my partners standing in front of the coach who's team is being effected* does not seem professional. How do I administer the correct ruling without having a drawn out conversation/argument with my partners. These were all Varsity Boys games with partners that I would consider experienced and mostly competent*.
*The proper term to use is "affected" in your case.

*Nevertheless, this post indicates how important it is for us to do constant rules and casebook review. I've had refs tell me "I been reffing games for 25 years and I know what I'm doing"---alas the ref is an example of someone who has been doing it for 25 years the 'wrong way'. Now when refs tell me that line it does not faze me.

*Now regarding how you diplomatically handle this disagreement/correction in public in front of the coach: you pull your crew to center court and discuss--away from the ears and influence of said coach. Hay I have to run to work a game, will give more input later on tonight...
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Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 04:18pm
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This something that I often pregame; not always, but most of the time. I'm trusted as the "rules guy" in all of my HS games and a majority of my college games, so luckily I don't have to worry about such scenarios. Those few occasions in college where I'm not inherently trusted it's because I'm working a Big Dawg who doesn't know me. In those cases, I'll state my piece and then let the Big Dawg go from there.

It is situations like these where it most definitely matters who the Crew Chief is for that game, especially in places where you don't work with preset crews all season.

When it comes to coaches and table personnel, I have a stock response: "I guarantee I know the rules better than you do". It's a d1ckhead statement, but I don't have time for that mess during games.
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Last edited by Raymond; Fri Jan 04, 2019 at 04:41pm.
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Old Fri Jan 04, 2019, 04:47pm
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Happy for all of the responses and anymore that come.

Takeaway so far is to just have the conference to get it right and pregame it.

My resistance toward the conference is that it is a basic rule just apply it correctly why do we need a conference and slow down the game? However better to get it right and clear then discuss in front of a coach or others.

I'm the R tonight so I will add it to the pregame list especially since there is a person I haven't worked with before on the crew.
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Old Sat Jan 05, 2019, 05:01am
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1. This is a rule which differs depending upon the level of play. NBA defines loose ball fouls and has specific rules for them. The NCAAM handled team control fouls the same as NFHS a few years ago, but then ran into a problem—the big dawgs working the tournament games couldn’t manage to get this rule correct. I posted several instances of it on this forum and gathered some of the video clips which got posted and sent them to Art Hyland. He had to be embarrassed as a rule change was made that off-season and FTs are now attempted for fouls such as the OP describes.

2. Hence, this is a problem for people. They actually have to READ and study the NFHS book instead of going by what they see others do on TV games. Over the years, I’ve found that that isn’t easy for people. Most learn better by watching and emulating. Thinking for oneself is sort of a lost skill in today’s society.

3. How to handle partners who are incorrect: I’ve taken this position before on this forum. You can provide information, but then you need to allow the calling official to live or die with his decision. If someone wishes to be stubborn, you can’t do anything. At the HS level, I’ve reached the point where I don’t even bother to get involved. The game fee is insignificant, there aren’t any ramifications in my area (shortage of officials/lack of observers/leadership doesn’t take steps to address) and there are too many poorly trained officials that it just makes my head hurt. I’ve concluded that upsetting a partner or the effort that it takes to persuade someone to do something differently just isn’t worth the small correction in game administration. If the leaders of the assn and the assignors cared, they would review videos and not put those people on the games. Of course, that doesn’t happen.

At the college level, I’ll ask a partner if he wants the heat from the supervisor or if he would prefer to shift it to me. I give him an out, then it’s up
To him if he wants to take it. Since the $ is better and losing a couple of assignments starts to have an impact, people seem to be more willing to listen and have a desire to not screw up, resulting in negative consequences.

In the end, you can’t study the rules for these people. They need to get into the books on their own and do their preparation work. Sadly, not everyone takes that task seriously.
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 10:18am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
1. This is a rule which differs depending upon the level of play. NBA defines loose ball fouls and has specific rules for them. The NCAAM handled team control fouls the same as NFHS a few years ago, but then ran into a problemóthe big dawgs working the tournament games couldnít manage to get this rule correct. I posted several instances of it on this forum and gathered some of the video clips which got posted and sent them to Art Hyland. He had to be embarrassed as a rule change was made that off-season and FTs are now attempted for fouls such as the OP describes.

2. Hence, this is a problem for people. They actually have to READ and study the NFHS book instead of going by what they see others do on TV games. Over the years, Iíve found that that isnít easy for people. Most learn better by watching and emulating. Thinking for oneself is sort of a lost skill in todayís society.

3. How to handle partners who are incorrect: Iíve taken this position before on this forum. You can provide information, but then you need to allow the calling official to live or die with his decision. If someone wishes to be stubborn, you canít do anything. At the HS level, Iíve reached the point where I donít even bother to get involved. The game fee is insignificant, there arenít any ramifications in my area (shortage of officials/lack of observers/leadership doesnít take steps to address) and there are too many poorly trained officials that it just makes my head hurt. Iíve concluded that upsetting a partner or the effort that it takes to persuade someone to do something differently just isnít worth the small correction in game administration. If the leaders of the assn and the assignors cared, they would review videos and not put those people on the games. Of course, that doesnít happen.

At the college level, Iíll ask a partner if he wants the heat from the supervisor or if he would prefer to shift it to me. I give him an out, then itís up
To him if he wants to take it. Since the $ is better and losing a couple of assignments starts to have an impact, people seem to be more willing to listen and have a desire to not screw up, resulting in negative consequences.

In the end, you canít study the rules for these people. They need to get into the books on their own and do their preparation work. Sadly, not everyone takes that task seriously.
Thanks this all makes sense. Especially number 3, I have seen many instances of blatant rule miss applications with usually nothing more than a shoulder shrug. With the shortage in our area there is no ramification for anything that I have heard of.
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 11:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Happy for all of the responses and anymore that come.

Takeaway so far is to just have the conference to get it right and pregame it.

My resistance toward the conference is that it is a basic rule just apply it correctly why do we need a conference and slow down the game? However better to get it right and clear then discuss in front of a coach or others.

I'm the R tonight so I will add it to the pregame list especially since there is a person I haven't worked with before on the crew.
I would suggest directing the players to their bench area for obvious reasons. Have your discussion and allow the referee to make the final decision since he/she has that authority in other situations (2-5-3). Keep in mind that if the decision is made to shoot the free throws I believe we would have a correctable error that could possibly be corrected within the time frame if this happened right before halftime and you were able to look it up during intermission.
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 01:13pm
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I pregame all often about what we do in situations where rules apply. I had a situation years ago when I called a foul that is a TC foul and was advocating at the time to shoot the FTs. I had a partner come to me and ask me, "Was that a TC foul?" I agreed and we did not shoot any FTs. I tell that story to say that at the moment we all call something and forget the nuance of the rule we might apply. I say to not allow that to just happen or talk about it later. I would just add this to the pregame discussion and you might be able to get a feel for why others do what they do or give them the power to feel like they can broach the conversation. Not saying it will solve all things, but when you open the discussion of these kinds of topics, that usually empowers the right people to at least check when they get a chance before a screw-up.

Peace
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 01:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I pregame all often about what we do in situations where rules apply. I had a situation years ago when I called a foul that is a TC foul and was advocating at the time to shoot the FTs. I had a partner come to me and ask me, "Was that a TC foul?" I agreed and we did not shoot any FTs. I tell that story to say that at the moment we all call something and forget the nuance of the rule we might apply. I say to not allow that to just happen or talk about it later. I would just add this to the pregame discussion and you might be able to get a feel for why others do what they do or give them the power to feel like they can broach the conversation. Not saying it will solve all things, but when you open the discussion of these kinds of topics, that usually empowers the right people to at least check when they get a chance before a screw-up.

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Thatís a great attitude for all officials to have toward each other!
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 02:05pm
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Can I say that I would like to commend Nevada, for what I believe, could be a top 10 post ever on this forum. That was excellent feedback and commentary and I could never have said what you did any better.
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Last edited by deecee; Tue Jan 08, 2019 at 10:25am.
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 02:39pm
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Tough To Be The Veteran Referee ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by billyu2 View Post
That’s a great attitude for all officials to have toward each other!
My new life as a subvarsity official. Worked with a second year official a few days ago. Good play calling, court coverage, signals, etc.

Note: My pregame included: Stay in your primary. Something must be very obvious to come out of your primary. If something is there that really needs to be called, call it. And: If anything odd happens, let’s get together and get it right.

First period. I get straightlined on a press break travel or illegal dribble in the jump ball circle that everyone in the gym saw except me (I could tell from the crowd).

Halftime to partner, "First period? Did I miss a travel or a double dribble in the jump ball circle?"
Partner, "Yes. Travel. I didn't want to overrule a veteran official."
Me, "I got straightlined. Veterans can miss stuff too. If you see your partner miss something that obvious, help him out".

Fourth period. Partner lead, I'm trail. White gains possession while on the floor near the block. White coach requests and is granted a timeout by me, I stay on the jump ball circle for the timeout, partner has ball for throwin on the front court lane line. After the horn, partner hands ball to Blue and we play ball.

Next timeout, partner walks over to me, "I think we gave the ball to the wrong team after the last timeout".
We discuss, and we did. It's half my fault. But he knew we may have been wrong before he administered the throwin.
Me, "Why didn't you say anything?".
Partner, "I figured that you, as the veteran, had it under control".
Me, "Don't ever be afraid to have a short one on one discussion with any partner about anything odd that happens in the game".

I'm a veteran, but a journeyman veteran official, I can't be that intimidating. Other partners have given me lots of much appreciated "help" over thirty-eight years.

Last week, in the locker room, I tried to convince a young partner that while we never shoot team control fouls, we do shoot common fouls (including no team control fouls) over the limit. He stubbornly disagreed with me, so I really can't be that intimidating.

We're the third team out there. Be a good teammate.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Jan 07, 2019 at 03:41pm.
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 04:24pm
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Your partner has bought into "attribution theory": giving the person characteristics he does not have, but rather ascribing those characteristics to him because of perceived age/seniority. It's a very hard perception to dis-embed from a person's mindset.

Why all the big hubbub about "team control fouls" and "not shooting bonus FTs" for them lately?
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Old Mon Jan 07, 2019, 04:31pm
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Your partner has bought into "attribution theory": giving the person characteristics he does not have, but rather ascribing those characteristics to him because of perceived age/seniority. It's a very hard perception to dis-embed from a person's mindset.

Why all the big hubbub about "team control fouls" and "not shooting bonus FTs" for them lately?
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