Jump Ball - Start the game (Video)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

So when did the NFHS intend it to be a violation for either jumper crossing the division line?

When did the NFHS intend this specific restriction to end?

When the official is ready to toss? When the ball is tossed? After the ball reaches its highest point? When the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers? When the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard? These are all real rule restriction enders to watch for during a jump ball.

Citation please.

I believe that BigCat's interpretation is the best we can do with no further information from the NFHS:

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Originally Posted by Raymond

How many U1's are looking where the jumpers are landing?

Agree. There's a lot to watch for during a jump ball, especially in a two person game.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Start games by giving the ball to the visitors at the division line opposite the table and avoid all this nineteenth century nonsense.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So when did the NFHS intend it to be a violation for either jumper crossing the division line?

When did the NFHS intend this specific restriction to end?

When the official is ready to toss? When the ball is tossed? After the ball reaches its highest point? When the tossed ball is touched by one or both jumpers? When the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard? These are all real rule restriction enders to watch for during a jump ball.

Citation please.

I believe that BigCat's interpretation is the best we can do with no further information from the NFHS:

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.



Agree. There's a lot to watch for during a jump ball, especially in a two person game.

If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line? How many time has BigCat? How many times collectively out of every single member on this forum has someone called a violation for a jumper landing on the other side of the division line?

If those answers are ZERO and the NFHS has never made it a POE to enforce, then I will say again: I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

IMO (O = Opinion), I believe the intent is for each jumper to stay in his/her half until the ball is touched. Just my hunch based on decade after decade of jump ball administration.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line? How many time has BigCat? How many times collectively out of every single member on this forum has someone called a violation for a jumper landing on the other side of the division line?

If those answers are ZERO and the NFHS has never made it a POE to enforce, then I will say again: I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

IMO (O = Opinion), I believe the intent is for each jumper to stay in his/her half until the ball is touched. Just my hunch based on decade after decade of jump ball administration.

The one thing I love about these videos is that people see things that I never even imagine would be thought about. If there is anything I hate about what people see, is they see things that no one would even think to care about.

I have never even thought that a player landing on the other side of the division line as a violation. It ever would have occurred to me that this was even thought of as something to call. I am more worried about if the ball was touched at the proper point and the clock starting properly. Yes, there are times when a player might move or run through the circle that is not a jumper, but still very rare. But never in my career, I can think of that I ever watched where a player landed between the jumpers.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... worried about ... the clock starting properly.

Good advice.

It's Friday, good time for a jump ball quiz.

1) Jumper A1 touches the ball more than twice before the jump ball ends. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

2) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends, with his catch being the first touch by any player. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

3) Jumper A1 taps the ball on the way up. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

4) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends, his catch being after jumper B1 taps the ball. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

5) Neither jumper A1, nor jumper B1, touches the ball after it reaches its highest point and the ball contacts the floor. Nontossing official sounds his whistle so that the jump ball can be tossed again. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

1) Jumper A1 touches the ball more than twice before the jump ball ends. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

2) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends, with his catch being the first touch by any player. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

3) Jumper A1 taps the ball on the way up. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

4) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends, his catch being after jumper B1 taps the ball. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

5) Neither jumper A1, nor jumper B1, touches the ball after it reaches its highest point and the ball contacts the floor. Nontossing official sounds his whistle so that the jump ball can be tossed again. Game clock shows 7:58. How is the game clock handled?

How about this:

6) Jumper A1 catches the ball before the jump ball ends. Nontossing official calls a violation on jumper A1. How does one start the game especially in reference to how one sets the alternating possession arrow?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT.

BigCat did come up with a valid (although poorly written and well hidden) citation.

During a jump ball a jumper ... is in the proper half of the center restraining circle ... which is farther from his/her basket. The jump ball end(s) when the touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, the floor, a basket or backboard.

Ever since the introduction of the alternating possession arrow, it has been my contention that many otherwise extremely competent officials either don't fully understand and memorize all the many jump ball rules and restrictions, and/or it's difficult to watch for all the many violations and many restrictions that can occur during the jump ball, especially in a two person game.

And we only get to observe various jump ball situations once (usually) a game.

As the umpire in a two person game, I'm watching for common violations, jumpers tapping the ball on the way up, jumpers catching the ball, or jumpers touching the ball more than twice, before the jump ball ends (touched ball contacts one of the eight nonjumpers, an official, or the floor). I'll also watch for the ball hitting the floor without being touched by at least one of the jumpers.

Unless one of the nonjumpers does something really weird, I'm probably not going to observe any non-really-weird violations from them. To avoid some nonjumper violations, as the umpire (or the referee) prejump, I will warn nonjumpers standing within three feet of the jump ball circle not to stand three feet directly behind anybody.

To my point of otherwise extremely competent officials not fully understanding and memorizing all the many jump ball rules and restrictions, several times a year I hear otherwise extremely competent (state tournament late round) varsity officials saying, prejump, "Hold your spots" to all eight nonjumpers, or, "You can't stand behind him”, to a player who is directly behind an opponent, both whom are ten feet off the jump ball circle.

The jump ball is archaic, some jump ball rules are poorly memorized/understood and/or poorly enforced, and we should start games with some other method.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Start games by giving the ball to the visitors at the division line opposite the table and avoid all this nineteenth century nonsense.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line?

He's assuming, as I sometimes do, the role of the theorist who argues abstract things for the sake of discussion. What we do in practice may be---and usually is---vastly different.

BillyMac was a career educator and I seem to be (much to my chagrin) a career student. So I think this is just how we're wired.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

... the role of the theorist who argues abstract things for the sake of discussion. What we do in practice may be, and usually is, vastly different.

I also do it to try to come up with the correct answer (if the NFHS allows that to be possible), and to reinforce that answer in my own mind. When I'm preaching to the choir, sometimes the choir is me.

There are practical ways to view rules and interpretations, and there are "written test" ways to view rules and interpretation.

I prefer to know both. I know the difference between them, and I know how to apply what I know in a "real" game.

[bucky]

Like many basketball plays, there are usually three officials and 10 players. Not every player can be watched simultaneously and this certainly applies to a jump ball, especially with one set of official's eyes on the ball. Yes, we only watch for common violations or will pick up extreme violations. Not sure what one poster meant about not crossing the division line ever as we are all familiar with someone stealing the tip by directly crossing the line, usually done when there is one tall and one short jumper. See example here at 20 second mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHBpR8Y-U0M

But again, notice that this is an extreme breaking of the rules not one based on a slight angle of jump landing. I have had this twice in my career, one being crossing the division line and the other being leaving the back of the circle. Sometimes there are rules in place that are created to prevent egregious/rare/extreme acts but their wording also applies to lesser acts. Clearly, the jump-ball wording in the rule book needs amending. Of course, then we sometimes end up with rule books that are too big. The tax code is a good example of this, lol.

Bottom line is that there is nothing to officiate in the OP. Play on.


(Indeed, thanks JRUT)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHBpR8Y-U0M

bucky, nice video, thanks for sharing.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

He's assuming, as I sometimes do, the role of the theorist who argues abstract things for the sake of discussion. What we do in practice may be---and usually is---vastly different.

BillyMac was a career educator and I seem to be (much to my chagrin) a career student. So I think this is just how we're wired.

I'm not one who shies away from analysis. My point is, regardless of the verbiage in the rule book (which I am not arguing), I do not think the NFHS wants or intends for it to be a violation for the a jumper to cross the division line prior to the jump ball ending. It they did intend for it to be a violation it would have been addressed at some point in some decade by a POE or in the preseason guide.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Raymond

If I had a CITATION then I wouldn't be discussing INTENT. But since you are so hell-bent on this being the proper ruling, tell me how many times have you, in your 30+ year officiating career, called a violation when a jumper landed on the other side of the division line? How many time has BigCat? How many times collectively out of every single member on this forum has someone called a violation for a jumper landing on the other side of the division line?

If those answers are ZERO and the NFHS has never made it a POE to enforce, then I will say again: I don't think it is the intent of the NFHS for it to be a violation if either jumper crosses the division line before the jump ball ends.

IMO (O = Opinion), I believe the intent is for each jumper to stay in his/her half until the ball is touched. Just my hunch based on decade after decade of jump ball administration.

I have never called it in 30 plus years of HS or college. Having said that, Jeff’s video asked something like “do you see anything wrong here...”. I didn’t see anything I’d call and the only thing close to wrong/different was fact that NC player went way in to other side of circle before jump over. I just happen to know that the rules say each jumper stay in his half of circle and note says “during jump ball.” Jump ball isn’t over until hits floor, non jumper etc. I pointed out what rule and note says.
Nothing more, nothing less. 6-3-1 and the note at the end of section 3.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I have never called it in 30 plus years of HS or college. Having said that, Jeff’s video asked something like “do you see anything wrong here...”. I didn’t see anything I’d call and the only thing close to wrong/different was fact that NC player went way in to other side of circle before jump over. I just happen to know that the rules say each jumper stay in his half of circle and note says “during jump ball.” Jump ball isn’t over until hits floor, non jumper etc. I pointed out what rule and note says.
Nothing more, nothing less. 6-3-1 and the note at the end of section 3.

That's fine, but that note is in the NFHS rule book. There is no verbiage in the NCAA rule book that says a jumper cannot cross the division line prior to the end of a jump ball.

[bucky]

I can see where the college rule book has info regarding jumpers and their restrictions. Article 4 has their feet on their side in their half circle. That is a restriction that does not end until the jump ball ends, as in article 2.

Section 2. Jump Ball
Art. 1. A jump ball is a method of putting the ball into play at the beginning
of the game or any extra period(s) by tossing it up between two opponents in
the center circle.

Art. 2. A jump ball shall begin when the ball leaves the official’s hand. The jump ball and all jump-ball restrictions shall end when the ball touches a non-jumper, the playing court, basket, backboard, an official or when the ball becomes dead.

Art. 3. Jumpers are the two opposing players vying for the tip during a jump
ball.

Art. 4. For any jump ball, each jumper shall have both feet inside the half of
the center circle that is farther from his team’s basket.

Art. 5. Each jumper may face in either direction.

Art. 6. The referee or designee shall toss the ball upward between the jumpers in a plane at right angles to the sidelines, to a height greater than either of the jumpers can jump and so that the ball will drop between them. The jump ball may be repeated when these provisions are not met.

Art. 7. When the ball touches the playing court without being touched by at
least one of the jumpers, the official shall toss the ball again.

Art. 8. Teammates shall not occupy adjacent positions around the center circle when an opponent indicates a desire for one of these positions before the referee is ready to toss the ball.

Art. 9. Players may move around the center circle without breaking the
geometrical cylinder that has the center circle as its base after the ball has left the referees hand(s) during the toss. A player positioned more than 3 feet outside the center circle shall not be subject to these restrictions.

[Raymond]

NCAA-Men have 9-8 explicitly stating what is a violation. NFHS has 9-6 that refers back to rule 6-3 for violations.