Video Request: St. Johns at Seton Hall - Inadvertent Whistle

[Camron Rust]

The NFHS has made it abundantly clear that team control only exists on a throw-in for the purpose of fouls and, for all other cases, there is no team control on a throw in.

Yes, the rules are horribly written with respect to that. But, the explanation of those rules when they came out and again in several situations after that specifically say that there is no team control for any other purpose during a throwin.

The most recent time they made that clear was in last year's powerpoint presentation.

You can see it on slide 30 here: https://www.nchsaa.org/sites/default..._Point.CD_.pdf

In it, they say:

▪ The relevance of team control during a throw-in only applies when a member of the throw- in team fouls. Such fouls shall be ruled team control fouls. Team control during a throw-in is NOT intended to be the same as player control/team control inbounds. Team control inbounds is established when a player from either team who has inbound status gains control of the ball. During the throw-in, 10-seconds, 3-seconds, frontcourt status, backcourt status, closely guarded, etc., are NOT factors as there has yet to be player control/team control obtained inbounds.

Subsequent slides further clarify the issue.

They should, however, rewrite the actual rule to say what they mean it to say.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Yes, the rules are horribly written with respect to that....They should, however, rewrite the actual rule to say what they mean it to say.

Interesting that both sets of NCAA rules are no more clear on this than the NFHS rules. What is the NCAA’s long-standing interpretation on this situation?



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[BigCat]

You can also look at 4.19.8f. Throwin is released and before it is legally touched a double foul occurs. Ruling. POI. Since Team As throwin “had not ended” the POI is a throwin by team A.
They didn’t say Team A has team control so they get ball back.

Once the throwin ends..inbounds control rules apply. They should put the POE language in the rule instead of making it a POE every two or three years...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Once the throwin ends..inbounds control rules apply. They should put the POE language in the rule instead of making it a POE every two or three years...

Bingo.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Interesting that both sets of NCAA rules are no more clear on this than the NFHS rules. What is the NCAA’s long-standing interpretation on this situation?



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I found a n NCAA clarification memo from Art Hyland Jan 2, 2018 covering this exact play in video. Team A is still in control even after throwin is deflected because a throwin is “a pass among teammates.”4-9-2..Give the ball back to Team A. They got it right in the video.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BigCat

I found a n NCAA clarification memo from Art Hyland Jan 2, 2018 covering this exact play in video. Team A is still in control even after throwin is deflected because a throwin is “a pass among teammates.”4-9-2..Give the ball back to Team A. They got it right in the video.

Art said what I was kind of thinking. He just articulated it better. So in NCAAM, we have an IW with a team in control in this situation.

Why, for the love of chicken soup, would we rule this any differently in HFHS? The relevant rule language is ostensibly identical.


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[billyu2]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The NFHS has made it abundantly clear that team control only exists on a throw-in for the purpose of fouls and, for all other cases, there is no team control on a throw in.

Yes, the rules are horribly written with respect to that. But, the explanation of those rules when they came out and again in several situations after that specifically say that there is no team control for any other purpose during a throwin.

The most recent time they made that clear was in last year's powerpoint presentation.

You can see it on slide 30 here: https://www.nchsaa.org/sites/default..._Point.CD_.pdf

In it, they say:



Subsequent slides further clarify the issue.

They should, however, rewrite the actual rule to say what they mean it to say.

I agree. I looked back in the 2006-07 Rules Fundamentals #2 where it says "Neither a team nor a player is ever in control during a dead ball, or during a jump ball or throw in." So, if this IW following the deflection situation occurred back then it would result in an AP throw in. As Cameron said, the NFHS made it clear the TC aspect on a throw in only pertains to fouls (by the throw in team.) Here in Ohio I remember the OHSAA was emphatic this was exactly how this was to be interpreted. Any other situation that might occur was to be ruled the same as it was before the new TC rule was adopted. Fine if the NCAA wants to interpret differently; but the NFHS has never changed its interpretation to my knowledge.

[bucky]

So, in essence, the release of the throwin is irrelevant, right? Had the IW occurred while the in-bounder was holding the ball, still go to AP if NFHS. That seems very unfair.

[BigCat]

[QUOTE=bucky;1027971]So, in essence, the release of the throwin is irrelevant, right? Had the IW occurred while the in-bounder was holding the ball, still go to AP if NFHS. That seems very unfair.[/QUOT

If the throw in hasn’t been released then the throwin has not ended and the POI under NFHS rules is a throwin for that team. If the throwin is released and not yet touched, the throwin has not ended and POI is again a throwin to the throwin team. If the throwin is released, deflected and loose when IW happens then you go to AP. No team in control inbounds.
NCAA says even when throwin deflected and loose, throwin team still in control. POI goes back to throwin team.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BigCat

If the throw in hasn’t been released then the throwin has not ended and the POI under NFHS rules is a throwin for that team. If the throwin is released and not yet touched, the throwin has not ended and POI is again a throwin to the throwin team. If the throwin is released, deflected and loose when IW happens then you go to AP. No team in control inbounds.
NCAA says even when throwin deflected and loose, throwin team still in control. POI goes back to throwin team.

100% correct

[bucky]

Something contradictory here. What difference does it make if the throw in has not ended? The whole point was to go to AP arrow when there was no TC and it was argued that there is no TC during a throw-in as far as IW whistles are concerned, that TC is only relevant for fouls.

That was my point. For IW, it should, based on what others have indicated under NFHS, not matter who was inbounding as you would always go to the arrow. Whether holding the ball, releasing it, releasing it and it being deflected, would all not come into play. An IW during any of those situations would result in going to the arrow.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by bucky

Something contradictory here. What difference does it make if the throw in has not ended? The whole point was to go to AP arrow when there was no TC and it was argued that there is no TC during a throw-in as far as IW whistles are concerned, that TC is only relevant for fouls.

That was my point. For IW, it should, based on what others have indicated under NFHS, not matter who was inbounding as you would always go to the arrow. Whether holding the ball, releasing it, releasing it and it being deflected, would all not come into play. An IW during any of those situations would result in going to the arrow.

The POI rule, 4-36-2b says the POI for an IW is a throwin when the interruption occurred during this activity. It is because of POI rule that ball goes back to team A if IW occurs before throw in ends. It could be made a whole lot clearer....

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bucky

Something contradictory here. What difference does it make if the throw in has not ended? The whole point was to go to AP arrow when there was no TC and it was argued that there is no TC during a throw-in as far as IW whistles are concerned, that TC is only relevant for fouls.



That was my point. For IW, it should, based on what others have indicated under NFHS, not matter who was inbounding as you would always go to the arrow. Whether holding the ball, releasing it, releasing it and it being deflected, would all not come into play. An IW during any of those situations would result in going to the arrow.

The rules explicitly say otherwise.

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[bballrules]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Interesting that both sets of NCAA rules are no more clear on this than the NFHS rules. What is the NCAA’s long-standing interpretation on this situation?



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Not sure I agree that NCAA does not address this. I can only speak for WBB (I am pretty sure the men's rules are written the same), but I can say this:

Rule 4-8.2: A team shall be in control when: (a) a player of the team is in control; (b) while a live ball is being passed between teammates; (c) when a player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in; or (d) during an interrupted dribble.

What is more important than when team control exists is when it ends. Rule 4-8.3 states that team control continues until the ball is in flight during a try for goal, an opponent secures control of the ball, or the ball becomes dead.

In the play from the game, once the ball was placed at SHU's disposal for the throw-in, they have team control until the conditions of Rule 4-8.3 exist. Since none of things had occurred prior to the official's whistle, SHU will be awarded the ball for a throw-in when play resumes (the men use the nearest throw-in spot, in this case, the 28-foot line; NCAAW would put the ball into play at the out-of-bounds spot nearest to where the ball was located when the official sounded the whistle).

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bucky

Something contradictory here. What difference does it make if the throw in has not ended? The whole point was to go to AP arrow when there was no TC and it was argued that there is no TC during a throw-in as far as IW whistles are concerned, that TC is only relevant for fouls.

That was my point. For IW, it should, based on what others have indicated under NFHS, not matter who was inbounding as you would always go to the arrow. Whether holding the ball, releasing it, releasing it and it being deflected, would all not come into play. An IW during any of those situations would result in going to the arrow.

You need to read the NFHS POI rule. It has three parts. Part 1 is for situations when there is team control. Part 2 is for situations during a free throw or a throw-in or when a team is entitled to one of those (the officials are about to administer such). Part 3 covers everything else.

Now how is the game resumed for:
Part 1 situations? —> award a throw-in to the team which had control.
Part 2 situations? —> award the team the throw-in or free throw which it was in the process of making or about to have take place.
Part 3 situations? —> award possession using the AP arrow.

The situation in the video is a Part 3 situation since the throw-in ended when the defender deflected the pass. Therefore, under NFHS rules play would be resumed using the AP arrow. NCAAM have a different ruling which awards the ball back to the throwing team.

On another note, Fox re-aired this contest yesterday and I watched the final ten minutes. Michael Stephens was the Trail official who blew the whistle during the play. After consulting the monitor with James Breeding, they determined to change the clock from 3.9 to 3.1 seconds remaining. Michael Stephens went over to broadcaster Len Elmore before play resumed and explained that he sounded his whistle after the deflection because the clock did not properly start.

We can debate whether he was over-sensitive to the clock in this situation and should have held his whistle while allowing the action on the court to play out and then halted the game at a better stopping point to correct the clock, but he did not have an inadvertent whistle afterall. He deliberately sounded it to make a timing correction at an unfortunate point in the action.