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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 03, 2018, 01:08pm
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Substitute confusion

Case Play 10.4.2 tells us that if a player leaves the game due to confusion about who is being subbed out, and then runs back onto the court during play, there's no penalty, as long as the player doesn't gain an advantage when returning to the court.

What happens if nobody recognizes the confusion for a couple of possessions?

1) Can the "player" then return from the bench, just like in the case play?

2) If the coach sends the player to the table to "sub" back in, can the player still jump back into the game?

3) What is that team member's status while incorrectly sitting on the bench?
a) Still a player (because he never should've come out of the game)?
b) Team member/bench personnel?
c) Substitute when waiting at the table?
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 03, 2018, 01:14pm
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Nice job of over-analyzing something that doesn't happen in ANY game beyond frosh/soph. Just tell the player to get back on the court and keep playing.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 03, 2018, 01:24pm
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Prior to the ball becoming live after I've counted the players:

"Hey Coach, you've only got four out here."

That usually solves the problem pretty quickly.
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Old Mon Dec 03, 2018, 01:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
Nice job of over-analyzing something that doesn't happen in ANY game beyond frosh/soph. Just tell the player to get back on the court and keep playing.
Now that I'm retired from my day job as a chemist, I working some afternoon freshman/junior varsity doubleheaders. Thanks for the advice.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Dec 03, 2018 at 01:42pm.
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Old Mon Dec 03, 2018, 01:39pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
Nice job of over-analyzing something that doesn't happen in ANY game beyond frosh/soph.
This happened in a Varsity game, as relayed to me by an official whom I respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry
Prior to the ball becoming live after I've counted the players:

"Hey Coach, you've only got four out here."

That usually solves the problem pretty quickly.
The player jumped off the court after the players had been counted and the ball was being bounced to the inbounder.

So. . .

Anybody want to actually answer my questions?
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 03, 2018, 01:41pm
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Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Anybody want to actually answer my questions?
What's there to answer? You answered it and so did I.
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Old Mon Dec 03, 2018, 01:50pm
Lighten up, Francis.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
What's there to answer? You answered it and so did I.
I haven't answered any of the questions that I posted. Your only answer was to tell the kid to get back in the game. But in the question, you haven't noticed that he left the game.

So between the time he leaves the game and the next 2 or 3 possessions, are you saying he's still a player, so he can return at any time? If so, then is he off the court for an unauthorized reason during those 2 or 3 possessions?

If the coach is as confused as the player and sends him to the table, is the kid now a sub or is he still a player?

If for some reason, the kid gets T'd up during those 2 or 3 possessions, is there an indirect to the coach?

There's a LOT to unpack in this real-life game situation.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 03, 2018, 02:30pm
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There's a lot of obscure "what ifs" just tell the kid to get in the game. Heck realistically you or any other official won't actually know who the kid is so how do you verify that the correct one entered? If the kid is this confused, as is the coach, this sounds like a frosh/soph game wrapped in the title of "varsity".

If the officials noticed the player "jumping" off the court while the ball is being bounced why not just retrieve the ball back and go to the bench and say "hey kid you want to play so your team has 5?" Instead of playing this cluster f'k to it's completion.

The crew can also just blow the play dead once they realize it's 5 on 4 and there is no immediate action and square things away. The rules weren't meant to account for everything, nor will they. In some cases just do the right thing.

This is all compounded ever further, IMO, if the officials actually knew who the 5th player was and just kept running up and down the court without one time saying to the kid/coach "hey you have 4 and he should get back in the game." I'd most likely have no clue who the 5th player was but if I felt this was one big confused mess I'd do my best to have this resolved before the next stoppage in play due to foul/violation.

The longer officials let messy situations consider instead of addressing them the worse they look. It's one thing if they didn't recognize what was happening and it's something entirely different if they did.

If the kid got a T who cares how you handle it. Treat him as a player or a sub, an argument could be made for either.
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Old Mon Dec 03, 2018, 08:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Case Play 10.4.2 tells us that if a player leaves the game due to confusion about who is being subbed out, and then runs back onto the court during play, there's no penalty, as long as the player doesn't gain an advantage when returning to the court.

What happens if nobody recognizes the confusion for a couple of possessions?

1) Can the "player" then return from the bench, just like in the case play?

2) If the coach sends the player to the table to "sub" back in, can the player still jump back into the game?

3) What is that team member's status while incorrectly sitting on the bench?
a) Still a player (because he never should've come out of the game)?
b) Team member/bench personnel?
c) Substitute when waiting at the table?
I've had this happen in a varsity game....player was on the court at first and left to sit down as we were inbounding the ball.

The individual is still a player since there was never a substitute to remove player status. That is why they can freely return....the player is supposed to be on the court.

After a timeout, of course, the story would be different but that is because a different rule requires all 5 player to return at approximately the same time...note that they're still players.
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Old Tue Dec 04, 2018, 02:08am
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
Nice job of over-analyzing something that doesn't happen in ANY game beyond frosh/soph. Just tell the player to get back on the court and keep playing.
Do you realize that you are talking to a guy who works D1 mens games?

Your response seems childish and rude.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 04, 2018, 02:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
This happened in a Varsity game, as relayed to me by an official whom I respect.

The player jumped off the court after the players had been counted and the ball was being bounced to the inbounder.

So. . .

Anybody want to actually answer my questions?
The player remains a player. No substitute replaced him, so he cannot he bench personnel by rule. He didnít leave the floor during a live ball, so his action is not a violation for leaving the floor.

Iíve never liked the interpretation, but under NFHS rules the player may re-enter without penalty as long as he returns without advantage.
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Old Tue Dec 04, 2018, 08:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
The player remains a player. No substitute replaced him, so he cannot he bench personnel by rule. He didnít leave the floor during a live ball, so his action is not a violation for leaving the floor.

Iíve never liked the interpretation, but under NFHS rules the player may re-enter without penalty as long as he returns without advantage.
I have long thought the rule should be that if you are playing with four, either:

a) you play with four until the next opportunity to substitute, or

b) you play with four until your team has the ball or the other team "withholds the ball from play" (or whatever the specific wording is) -- similar to a minor injury.
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Old Tue Dec 04, 2018, 11:23am
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Flying By The Seat Of Our Pants ...

I appreciate those who gave their attention to this situation and offered detailed rule based interpretations, as well as those who explained why it was important to discuss such matters.

They're teenagers, they screw up all the time, no matter what level the game is. Sometimes the adult coach, or the adults at the table screw up. Yes, the officials should always be aware of how many players are on the court, but sometimes we screw up, and sometimes the number of players on the court, be it four, or six, is beyond our control and we need to know how to handle it properly, by the rulebook, and not interpret by flying by the seat of our pants.

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Old Tue Dec 04, 2018, 06:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
They're teenagers, they screw up all the time, no matter what level the game is. Sometimes the adult coach, or the adults at the table screw up.
And sometimes the adults lead the kids to the screw up.

Recent varsity game, kid reports to table, table hits the horn, player runs on to court. Pretty standard . . . except, the ball had already been given to the free thrower, so the table should not have hit the horn--but its the kid who gets tagged with the T.

Yes, I agree that by varsity a kid should know to get the signal from the ref, and I understand this is by the book a T--curious how many would give that T, how many would whistle the FT dead when the timer hits the horn, and how many would shoo the kid back rather than assessing the T.
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Old Tue Dec 04, 2018, 07:11pm
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Whistle it dead on the horn and prevent a mess. Iím not penalizing a kid when the table crew screws up.
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