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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 02:00pm
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hanging on the rim

Which one(s) of these would receive a techinical foul from you?

I would only have one on #3.

On #3 would do you consider the rim hang and then the backboard slap one action so only T?

That is how I would rule on it.


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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 03:14pm
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Grasp The Basket ...

It is legal to hang on the ring if a player is avoiding an injury to himself or herself or another player.

1) Probably not a technical foul.
2) Technical foul.
3) Technical foul.
4) Technical foul.

Rule 10: A player shall not: Grasp either basket at any time during the game except to prevent
injury.

10.3.3 SITUATION A: A1 is dribbling rapidly toward A’s basket and appears to
have an uncontested opportunity to score. B1 comes in quickly from the side and
violently undercuts A1 who is in the act of shooting. A1 momentarily grasps the
ring to regain balance and avoid injury. RULING: A1 is not penalized for grasping
the ring, as it clearly was done to prevent possible injury. B1 is charged with a flagrant
personal foul and is disqualified. Whether the try was successful or not, A1
is awarded two free throws with no players along the lane. Following the last
throw, Team A is awarded the ball for a throw-in at the out-of-bounds spot nearest
to where the foul occurred.

10.3.3 SITUATION B: A1 jumps for a try near the basket but loses his/her balance
after releasing the ball. A1 grasps the basket to prevent injury. The ball: (a)
is; or (b) is not, in the basket or on the ring while A1 is hanging on the ring.
RULING: In (a), it is basket interference by A1 which causes the ball to become
dead and no goal can be scored. In (b), there is no violation unless A1 is still
hanging on the ring when the ball touches the basket or goes into the basket. In
both (a) and (b), A1’s grasping is not penalized if it is judged there was a possiRule
bility of injury had he/she not grasped the basket. (9-1)

10.3.3 SITUATION C: A1 dunks the ball, then grasps the ring: (a) to avoid possible
injury as he/she has lost his/her balance; or (b) because A2 or B1 is lying
on the floor directly under the basket. RULING: Grasping the ring to prevent
injury as in (a) or (b), is permitted without penalty.

10.3.3 SITUATION D: Only a few seconds remain in the second quarter. Team
A is advancing the ball from backcourt to frontcourt. A1 is driving toward his/her
basket and is about to dunk the ball when the signal indicates the end of the first
half. Shortly after the signal, A1 dunks the ball and hangs on to the rim. RULING:
A1 is assessed a technical foul for dunking a dead ball. The foul is also charged
indirectly to the head coach and results in the loss of coaching-box privileges
since A1 is considered bench personnel. The third quarter begins with Team B
being awarded two free throws and the ball at the division line. The alternatingpossession
arrow is not affected and remains unchanged. (4-34-2; 5-6-2
Exception 4)
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 07:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy341a View Post
I would only have one on #3.

Same.

In #1, the official had that whistle ready as soon as his hands hit the rim.

I'm not saying these examples aren't in line with the letter of the rule as written, but three of these are not egregious enough to bother, imo, and do nothing for your game, other than potentially make it worse.
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  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 21, 2018, 09:54pm
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I only have a T on #3. The others could be argued that he was avoiding injury. That can't be argued on #3. I also like the idea of 2 T's for play #3, one for the dead ball dunk, the other for hanging on the rim. However, the case play involving that situation only ruled 1 T. Hmmmm.....

(Funny how the player acts so surprised but clearly he has been given T's for hanging on the rim. You would think the surprise would no longer be there. The zoom in is hilarious at the end.)
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Old Sat Sep 22, 2018, 06:33am
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Honestly all but 3 were so similar and they are consistent I would say they are all good. Player needs to stop playing the victim and adjust. Technically they were all unnecessary. In some parts of the country where above the rim play is more normal these may be acceptable. However in many parts of the country where above the rim play is uncommon the threshold is much lower.
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  #6 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 22, 2018, 12:30pm
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I have never been athletic enough to do anything like this. I sometimes think officials are victim of regional bias. If you get very few dunkers or very little above them rim play then when it happens there are variables we don't often deal with.

ie. Players are allowed to grab and protect themselves from others and from injury. Which means they can go up with extra speed, momentum and energy knowing they don't need to control their landing they can grab the rim to do so. They do not have to go up planning on landing without grabbing the rim.

From an international rules standpoint we are currently in process of changing rules to allow for more dynamic and athletic plays and encourage more of them. If in a high level game I had a on anyone of these except 3 where he slaps as well then I'ld be getting looks from people including my partner.

Even with a stricter standard applied I don't see how #4 is T. He is turning to let go and land when a player appears from his blindspot moving through his landig area and he swings to buy time and avoid him.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 22, 2018, 01:15pm
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Hey Everybody, Look At Me ...

Technically, the rule prevents a player "grasping" the "basket" except to avoid injuries. Nothing about hanging from the rim, although that's what actually happens in reality.

Determining the legality of a basket grasp is very subjective. I actually had a problem viewing this video from the lead because I'm almost always deciding on the legality of this situation from trail (with the exception of a breakaway off a midcourt steal).

I only get a few dozen dunks each season. The way I view it, a player could grasp the basket in a number of ways.

1) Immediately release after the dunk. Obviously, completely legal.

2) Grasp the basket, and hold on for a few moments, to get his balance to avoid injury to himself. Also, obviously completely legal.

3) Grasp the basket, and hold on for a long time, to avoid falling on and injuring players below him (and/or himself), with some players possibly being on the floor. Also, obviously completely legal

4) Grasp the basket, and hold on for a few moments, taking a few pendulum swings back and forth, to get his balance to avoid injury to himself, or to avoid injury to others who may be beneath him. Also, obviously completely legal.

5) Grasp the basket, and hold on for a few extra moments to showboat, “Hey everybody, look at me”. Illegal.

6) Grasp the basket, and hold on for a few extra moments, and take a few pendulum swings back and forth, to showboat, “Hey everybody, look at me”. Illegal.

7) Grasp the basket, hold on for a few extra moments, and do a few pull-ups. Also showboating, “Hey everybody, look at me”, and also illegal.

8) Grasp the basket, hold on for a few extra moments, and perform some "extracurricular" activities, like slapping the backboard. Also showboating, “Hey everybody, look at me”, and also illegal.

Of course, this list doesn't include all the possibilities that could occur.

It's very difficult to subjectively determine the legality, or the illegality, of the plays in the middle of the list above. Plays at the beginning and end of this list may be be easier to rule upon.

Plays where the player is both showboating and avoiding injuries are the hardest to rule upon, but since the player is avoiding injures, officials should (hopefully) rule these plays legal.

I'm not a mind reader. I have to react to what I observe in front of me.

Let's also remember that one intent of this rule is to prevent equipment damage, a distorted basket could delay a game for hours, even days.

The paragraph below is in regard to dunking, but it may shed some light on why the NFHS discourages players from grasping the basket.

When Lew Alcindor (Kareem Abdul Jabbar) (UCLA 1966-1969, NBA 1969-1989) started playing basketball for UCLA Bruins, NCAA officials felt that the seven foot, two inch All-American center, being especially tall and athletic, could place the ball over the rim and throw it through the hoop with ease. This feat of athleticism which we all know as the dunk and seems so routine was not so routine back in the mid-1960’s. It was considered unfair that he could do it so easily. So the NCAA banned dunking in 1967. This was called the “Alcindor Rule”. Another reason dunking was outlawed was to prevent injury and equipment damage. A distorted rim could delay a game. As a result of the rule, Alcindor developed a great hook shot, the “Sky Hook”, which he used effectively during his playing days in college, and in the NBA. After multiple issues with the new rule and the invention of the breakaway rim the NCAA allowed the dunk to be legal again during 1976-1977 season which was shortly after UCLA Coach John Wooden's retirement. The “Alcindor Rule” eventually trickled down to NFHS rules. In 1967, the NFHS banned dunking in high school basketball games. In 1970, the NFHS also prohibited dunking during pregame warmups. Like the NCAA, the NFHS reversed itself in 1976 and a rule change allowed dunking during the game but not during pregame warmups, nor during intermissions, and with a later rule change in 1978 outlawing dunking a dead ball.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Sep 22, 2018 at 05:10pm.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 24, 2018, 10:14am
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A big indicator for me is if the player uses the rim to pull themselves up. If the player simply dunks the ball and has their hands on the rim as they come down no issue. When the player uses the rim to pull themselves or their legs up in the air, to me that is a trigger for a T.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Sep 24, 2018, 10:21am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
10.3.3 SITUATION D: Only a few seconds remain in the second quarter. Team
A is advancing the ball from backcourt to frontcourt. A1 is driving toward his/her
basket and is about to dunk the ball when the signal indicates the end of the first
half. Shortly after the signal, A1 dunks the ball and hangs on to the rim. RULING:
A1 is assessed a technical foul for dunking a dead ball. The foul is also charged
indirectly to the head coach and results in the loss of coaching-box privileges
since A1 is considered bench personnel. The third quarter begins with Team B
being awarded two free throws and the ball at the division line. The alternating possession
arrow is not affected and remains unchanged. (4-34-2; 5-6-2
Exception 4)
In this case play is the fact that he hangs on the rim addressed? Obviously this is the rule and I respect that, but in my opinion the time between horn and dunk better be very obvious to sit the coach for the rest of the game.
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Old Mon Sep 24, 2018, 11:25am
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Dead Ball Dunk ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
In this case play is the fact that he hangs on the rim addressed? Obviously this is the rule and I respect that, but in my opinion the time between horn and dunk better be very obvious to sit the coach for the rest of the game.
10.3.3 SITUATION D is about grasping the basket and dunking a dead ball.

A player shall not: Dunk, or stuff, or attempt to dunk, or stuff, a dead ball.

Agree about being sure that the player was aware that the period was over.

Famous college situation here in Connecticut more than forty years ago. Southern Connecticut State College is ahead by one point over Springfield at the final buzzer. After the final buzzer, excited Southern player dunks the ball to celebrate the victory over a New England rival before the officials had approved the final score and left the confines of the court. Officials call the technical foul, free throw by Springfield ties the game, which goes into overtime and Springfield ends up winning the game.
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Old Mon Sep 24, 2018, 12:26pm
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Don't Look Back ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Famous college situation here in Connecticut more than forty years ago. Southern Connecticut State College is ahead by one point over Springfield at the final buzzer. After the final buzzer, excited Southern player dunks the ball to celebrate the victory over a New England rival before the officials had approved the final score and left the confines of the court. Officials call the technical foul, free throw by Springfield ties the game, which goes into overtime and Springfield ends up winning the game.
After this situation, the interpreter of our local high school IAABO board encouraged us to get off the floor and away from the visual confines of the playing area as soon as possible. No signing the book. No waiting for the hand shake line. No talking to a friendly fan, police officer in the corner, site director, or athletic director. Just make eye contact with the official scorekeeper to "approve" the final score, and run, not walk, off the court, away from the "visual confines of the playing area" as soon as possible, and don't look back.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Mon Sep 24, 2018 at 02:25pm.
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Old Mon Sep 24, 2018, 10:40pm
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How exactly is the score approved? I know what the rulebook says, but in my practice, the Referee (and the Umpire(s), for a scholastic game) sign the scorebook after the Referee inspects the scorebook before the game. On the one hand, I agree with the recommendation to leave as soon as possible, but how would an error be corrected?

On a last-second shot, IMO, the crew (including the timer and alternate official, if applicable (sometimes, the alternate official IS also the timer)) should get together before rendering a final decision. This is to ensure that the officials get the call right, because a successful last-second shot could change the outcome of the game (knowing whether the last shot was a 2 or 3 pointer is important, because it can decide who wins, and if overtime was played. For example, Oakton and Chantilly played a game, and Oakton was down by 3 when a player made a last second shot. The responsible official (the Center opposite the table) decided that the shot was good, and that it was a 3-pointer. The Trail and Lead informed him that the shooter's feet were on the 3-point line, and the C correctly called the shot as a 2-pointer. Thus, the shot was good, but the game was over, with Oakton losing by 1.).

I agree with sdoebler on grabbing the rim (which is normal after a dunk) to regain balance versus hanging on the rim and pulling up or waving one's legs in the air, which should be a technical foul, because the player is just showing off. If the player grabs and jumps off after a dunk, fine by me. If a player is flying, grabs, returns to a vertical position, and jumps down, OK. The injury exception also makes sense. But if a player is just hanging to hang, or to show off, T.
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Old Tue Sep 25, 2018, 06:20am
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Approve The Score ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
How exactly is the score approved?
If the game ends in a fifteen point blowout, the officials just give a salute, thumbs up, etc., to the table crew, and leave the visual confines of the court.

If it's a three point win, the officials, before leaving the visual confines of the court, should both make eye contact, with a pregnant pause, with the table crew, to make sure the the crew at the table isn't gesturing, yelling, etc., indicating a problem, in which case the officials should investigate further (bookkeeping error, books don't match, book doesn't match scoreboard, correctable error, etc.). In the absence of such gesturing, yelling, etc., they should just give a salute, thumbs up, etc. to the table crew, and leave the visual confines of the court.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 25, 2018 at 10:32am.
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old Tue Sep 25, 2018, 07:34am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
How exactly is the score approved? I know what the rulebook says, but in my practice, the Referee (and the Umpire(s), for a scholastic game) sign the scorebook after the Referee inspects the scorebook before the game. On the one hand, I agree with the recommendation to leave as soon as possible, but how would an error be corrected?

On a last-second shot, IMO, the crew (including the timer and alternate official, if applicable (sometimes, the alternate official IS also the timer)) should get together before rendering a final decision. This is to ensure that the officials get the call right, because a successful last-second shot could change the outcome of the game (knowing whether the last shot was a 2 or 3 pointer is important, because it can decide who wins, and if overtime was played. For example, Oakton and Chantilly played a game, and Oakton was down by 3 when a player made a last second shot. The responsible official (the Center opposite the table) decided that the shot was good, and that it was a 3-pointer. The Trail and Lead informed him that the shooter's feet were on the 3-point line, and the C correctly called the shot as a 2-pointer. Thus, the shot was good, but the game was over, with Oakton losing by 1.).
When I'm the R, I normally check with the table after the 3Q and again near the end of the game to make sure everything is good. Once the horn goes off, we're out of there absent the table frantically trying to get our attention. And once all three of us are outside the visual confines, that's it. Thankfully I don't referee in Massachusetts.

Not sure what the point of your second paragraph is as it relates to this thread.

Last edited by SC Official; Tue Sep 25, 2018 at 07:37am.
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Old Tue Sep 25, 2018, 10:38am
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Everything Copacetic Here ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
When I'm the R, I normally check with the table after the 3Q and again near the end of the game to make sure everything is good..
Great point. I'll do it as the umpire if I'm closer to the table at the beginning of the 3/4 intermission, or during late game timeouts. I consider these encounters to be the beginning of the "score approval" process. I don't want any surprises at the end.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Sep 25, 2018 at 10:47am.
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