hanging on the rim

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

10.3.3 SITUATION D: Only a few seconds remain in the second quarter. Team
A is advancing the ball from backcourt to frontcourt. A1 is driving toward his/her
basket and is about to dunk the ball when the signal indicates the end of the first
half. Shortly after the signal, A1 dunks the ball and hangs on to the rim. RULING:
A1 is assessed a technical foul for dunking a dead ball. The foul is also charged
indirectly to the head coach and results in the loss of coaching-box privileges
since A1 is considered bench personnel. The third quarter begins with Team B
being awarded two free throws and the ball at the division line. The alternating possession
arrow is not affected and remains unchanged. (4-34-2; 5-6-2
Exception 4)

In this case play is the fact that he hangs on the rim addressed? Obviously this is the rule and I respect that, but in my opinion the time between horn and dunk better be very obvious to sit the coach for the rest of the game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

In this case play is the fact that he hangs on the rim addressed? Obviously this is the rule and I respect that, but in my opinion the time between horn and dunk better be very obvious to sit the coach for the rest of the game.

10.3.3 SITUATION D is about grasping the basket and dunking a dead ball.

A player shall not: Dunk, or stuff, or attempt to dunk, or stuff, a dead ball.

Agree about being sure that the player was aware that the period was over.

Famous college situation here in Connecticut more than forty years ago. Southern Connecticut State College is ahead by one point over Springfield at the final buzzer. After the final buzzer, excited Southern player dunks the ball to celebrate the victory over a New England rival before the officials had approved the final score and left the confines of the court. Officials call the technical foul, free throw by Springfield ties the game, which goes into overtime and Springfield ends up winning the game.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Famous college situation here in Connecticut more than forty years ago. Southern Connecticut State College is ahead by one point over Springfield at the final buzzer. After the final buzzer, excited Southern player dunks the ball to celebrate the victory over a New England rival before the officials had approved the final score and left the confines of the court. Officials call the technical foul, free throw by Springfield ties the game, which goes into overtime and Springfield ends up winning the game.

After this situation, the interpreter of our local high school IAABO board encouraged us to get off the floor and away from the visual confines of the playing area as soon as possible. No signing the book. No waiting for the hand shake line. No talking to a friendly fan, police officer in the corner, site director, or athletic director. Just make eye contact with the official scorekeeper to "approve" the final score, and run, not walk, off the court, away from the "visual confines of the playing area" as soon as possible, and don't look back.

[ilyazhito]

How exactly is the score approved? I know what the rulebook says, but in my practice, the Referee (and the Umpire(s), for a scholastic game) sign the scorebook after the Referee inspects the scorebook before the game. On the one hand, I agree with the recommendation to leave as soon as possible, but how would an error be corrected?

On a last-second shot, IMO, the crew (including the timer and alternate official, if applicable (sometimes, the alternate official IS also the timer)) should get together before rendering a final decision. This is to ensure that the officials get the call right, because a successful last-second shot could change the outcome of the game (knowing whether the last shot was a 2 or 3 pointer is important, because it can decide who wins, and if overtime was played. For example, Oakton and Chantilly played a game, and Oakton was down by 3 when a player made a last second shot. The responsible official (the Center opposite the table) decided that the shot was good, and that it was a 3-pointer. The Trail and Lead informed him that the shooter's feet were on the 3-point line, and the C correctly called the shot as a 2-pointer. Thus, the shot was good, but the game was over, with Oakton losing by 1.).

I agree with sdoebler on grabbing the rim (which is normal after a dunk) to regain balance versus hanging on the rim and pulling up or waving one's legs in the air, which should be a technical foul, because the player is just showing off. If the player grabs and jumps off after a dunk, fine by me. If a player is flying, grabs, returns to a vertical position, and jumps down, OK. The injury exception also makes sense. But if a player is just hanging to hang, or to show off, T.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

How exactly is the score approved?

If the game ends in a fifteen point blowout, the officials just give a salute, thumbs up, etc., to the table crew, and leave the visual confines of the court.

If it's a three point win, the officials, before leaving the visual confines of the court, should both make eye contact, with a pregnant pause, with the table crew, to make sure the the crew at the table isn't gesturing, yelling, etc., indicating a problem, in which case the officials should investigate further (bookkeeping error, books don't match, book doesn't match scoreboard, correctable error, etc.). In the absence of such gesturing, yelling, etc., they should just give a salute, thumbs up, etc. to the table crew, and leave the visual confines of the court.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

How exactly is the score approved? I know what the rulebook says, but in my practice, the Referee (and the Umpire(s), for a scholastic game) sign the scorebook after the Referee inspects the scorebook before the game. On the one hand, I agree with the recommendation to leave as soon as possible, but how would an error be corrected?

On a last-second shot, IMO, the crew (including the timer and alternate official, if applicable (sometimes, the alternate official IS also the timer)) should get together before rendering a final decision. This is to ensure that the officials get the call right, because a successful last-second shot could change the outcome of the game (knowing whether the last shot was a 2 or 3 pointer is important, because it can decide who wins, and if overtime was played. For example, Oakton and Chantilly played a game, and Oakton was down by 3 when a player made a last second shot. The responsible official (the Center opposite the table) decided that the shot was good, and that it was a 3-pointer. The Trail and Lead informed him that the shooter's feet were on the 3-point line, and the C correctly called the shot as a 2-pointer. Thus, the shot was good, but the game was over, with Oakton losing by 1.).

When I'm the R, I normally check with the table after the 3Q and again near the end of the game to make sure everything is good. Once the horn goes off, we're out of there absent the table frantically trying to get our attention. And once all three of us are outside the visual confines, that's it. Thankfully I don't referee in Massachusetts.

Not sure what the point of your second paragraph is as it relates to this thread.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

When I'm the R, I normally check with the table after the 3Q and again near the end of the game to make sure everything is good..

Great point. I'll do it as the umpire if I'm closer to the table at the beginning of the 3/4 intermission, or during late game timeouts. I consider these encounters to be the beginning of the "score approval" process. I don't want any surprises at the end.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Thankfully I don't referee in Massachusetts.

[ilyazhito]

SC Official, the point is to indicate that there are cases where officials need to get together after time has expired. For some reason, this thread digressed into BillyMac saying that officials should not remain after time expires to prevent the possibility of a post-game technical foul that could change the result of the game. He said that this happened at a college game in New England, and that the team awarded technical foul free throws won the game in OT (the technical foul was for dunking a dead ball). If the officials get together because of a last-second shot decision, and some clown on the "winning" team dunks the ball while the officials remain on the court, I have no problem with assessing the technical foul, if the points from the free throws could determine the outcome of the game, because this is not a situation that the officials could have reasonably foreseen or prevented, and the officials have rules support for making such a call.

I would prefer that dunks before the game and in intermissions become legal in NFHS, just as in NCAA, because that would remove another provision of the rules that officials would need to enforce, and would allow players that dunk to properly warm up, provided that the rims are not damaged. However, the NFHS basketball rules committee would have to pass such a proposal (or state rules committees would have to unilaterally adopt such a proposal, as has happened in 8 states and DC with a shot clock). Even better would be if dunks before a game, in intermissions, or after the game become legal, because that would eliminate the play that BillyMac mentioned.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

... BillyMac saying that officials should not remain after time expires to prevent the possibility of a post-game technical foul that could change the result of the game.

That's not what I said.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

... the interpreter of our local high school IAABO board encouraged us to get off the floor and away from the visual confines of the playing area as soon as possible. No signing the book. No waiting for the hand shake line. No talking to a friendly fan, police officer in the corner, site director, or athletic director. Just make eye contact with the official scorekeeper to "approve" the final score, and run, not walk, off the court, away from the "visual confines of the playing area" as soon as possible ...

As soon as possible means no signing the book, no waiting for the hand shake line, no talking to a friendly fan, police officer in the corner, site director, or athletic director.

As soon as possible doesn't mean to leave before any scorekeeping issues are rectified.

Once one leaves the visual confines of the court, by rule, one can't come back to correct any errors.

Many, many years ago, we had a guy on another local board (originally trained by my local board) who did that (he actually came out of the locker room) and it didn't work out very well for him. He made the first page of all the sports sections in all the newspapers in the entire state. Phineas T. Barnum, the nineteenth century American showman, and circus owner (born in Connecticut) said, "There's no such thing as bad publicity". He was wrong, dead wrong. There is such a thing as bad publicity.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I would prefer that dunks before the game and in intermissions become legal in NFHS.

Please, please wait until I hang up my whistle for good.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I would prefer that dunks before the game and in intermissions become legal in NFHS, just as in NCAA, because that would remove another provision of the rules that officials would need to enforce, and would allow players that dunk to properly warm up, provided that the rims are not damaged. However, the NFHS basketball rules committee would have to pass such a proposal (or state rules committees would have to unilaterally adopt such a proposal, as has happened in 8 states and DC with a shot clock). Even better would be if dunks before a game, in intermissions, or after the game become legal, because that would eliminate the play that BillyMac mentioned.

This is where you being young gets in the way. Most high schools do not have the money or the resources to simply replace a basket if broken or the liability if some kid falls on this head. Even at the NCAA level, depending on the level of college games, it is not allowed to dunk. I can tell you that NAIA and JUCO have rules against dunking in the pre-game based on several factors. So that means many lower level college ranks does not do what the NCAA D1 does because of money. I remember when the RA was first put in at the NCAA level, the D2 and D3 did not even have to put an RA on the floor for a year or so because of the lack of resources to change the court. I do not see the NF changing this stance at all. There have been kids that died for trying to dunk and falling incorrectly.

Believe it or not, there are actually reasons for things being done a certain way. And those reasonings have had a longer history than you would be aware of because you have not been officiating very long. A Shot clock is one thing, a rule that might cause other problems is another.

Peace