The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 10:59am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,822
Separate And Alone ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
There is no such thing as an Intentional Flagrant Foul. Kind of why the language matters here.
I'm sure that both you, and bob jenkins, have a good handle on the semantics regarding this topic, or you wouldn't be posting.

I came up with the "intentional flagrant" foul as I was going through the signal sequence that I would make in a game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I'm definitely (and immediately) coming in with an intentional foul signal (the X), possibly adding the IAABO-unapproved excessive contact signal (drop both hands), and then definitely adding the IAABO-unapproved "heave ho", or "you're outta here", signal (point to the sky).
This act clearly fits the excessive contact language of an intentional foul, and also clearly fits the violent and savage language of a flagrant foul.

I'm hanging my hat on this definition:

4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal ... foul of a violent or savage nature ... It may or may not be intentional.

Please offer a citation that says otherwise.

I do understand that any personal flagrant foul will always involve excessive contact, but not vice versa, all excessive contact will not necessarily be flagrant. Is that what you mean?

Or is it that Rule 4 Definitions lists several different types of fouls and that one can't combine fouls on the list, that they must stand separate and alone? Is that what you mean?

Respectfully, I just (again) went through all the Rule 4 "Foul" definitions and see nothing that prevents us from combining intentional and flagrant. Is your point made somewhere else in the rulebook, or am I (again) missing something in Rule 4?

Please come up with a simple explanation for your point because I would like this to be settled in my mind. Both you, and bob jenkins, can't be wrong.

"Trust, but verify", often attributed to President Ronald Reagan, but is actually a Russian proverb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I've decided to play.
Something in the back of my mind told me not to get involved. I should have listened.

But, if I shy away from complex, controversial, situations, I'll never learn.

I guess that I keep thinking about how Jurassic Referee would always ream me out whenever I screwed up. I usually, actually almost always, deserved it.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Sep 09, 2018 at 12:05pm.
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 11:02am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,822
Agree ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Now if it was a technical, then you can have a Flagrant Technical. But that is not enforced the same as a regular flagrant foul. A Flagrant Foul only the fouled player can shoot that unless injured of course. Anyone can shoot a Flagrant Technical Foul. Kind of why the language matters here.
Agree 100%. This was never a problem for me. Never, ever. But a good point for some inexperienced Forum members to remember.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 11:41am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,822
No Harm, No Foul ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
There is no such thing as an Intentional Flagrant Foul. Kind of why the language matters here.
What harm could possibly come because a foul is called "intentional flagrant"? Would it really "matter", or is it just a terminology issue?

Would a coach protest that a player shouldn't be ejected because I used the term "intentional"?

Other than the ejection, the penalties are exactly the same. Two shots by fouled player (unless fouled shooting a three pointer that doesn't go in). No players on lane. Offended team gets ball back at spot closest to foul.

Or is it only a problem is one is taking a written test?

And if so, what's the citation that says it's a problem?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 11:45am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 17,301
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Are you saying that one can never have an intentional flagrant foul?
Yes.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 11:56am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,822
Or, One Word, One Important Word ...

Is this the problem? I found it under Rule10/Fouls/Contact/Penalty.

Two free throws if intentional or flagrant, plus ball for throw-in.

Is the problem because it doesn't state "two free throws if intentional and/or flagrant, plus ball for throw-in"?

There is a big, important difference between the word and and the word or. No doubt about it.

If so, you guys are right, but there must be more to it than that?
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 11:57am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,822
Always Listen To bob, Even When He's Terse ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Are you saying that one can never have an intentional flagrant foul?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Yes.
And why would you say that?

I want to agree with you, and JRutledge, but I just need a little push.



4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal ... foul of a violent or savage nature ... It may or may not be intentional.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Sep 09, 2018 at 12:06pm.
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 12:11pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,822
Dueling Citations ...

Are these the conflicting citations?

Two free throws if intentional or flagrant, plus ball for throw-in.

4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal ... foul of a violent or savage nature ... It may or may not be intentional.


Please let there be more to it than that, otherwise I'm going with 4-19-4 over the other one, and yet, I still feel that I'm wrong, and still need that little push.

If I'm presented with this situation on a written test, I want to get it right and be able to offer more of an explanation than, "Because bob jenkins, and JRutledge, and I, said so".
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Sep 09, 2018 at 12:17pm.
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 01:05pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,822
Uppercase, Lowercase ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
... use of "intentional" is different from the use in Intentional foul.
Please expound upon this (above).

I really want to get this straightened out, even if it's only for a written test, even if it means that I'm wrong, but I need some reasons. And I will except even a minor reason why I'm wrong, as long as it important enough to overturn this language:

4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal ... foul of a violent or savage nature ... It may or may not be intentional.

The word "It" refers to a flagrant foul, so we can reword it to state: "A flagrant foul may or may not be intentional".

Does that mean, "It may or may not be an intentional foul"? That's the question here.

So 4-19-4 contains the word "intentional" and I want to know what "intentional" means to the NFHS. So, like any good official, I look under Rule 4 Definitions and find this definition of "intentional foul":
4-19-3: An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that may or may not be premeditated and is not based solely on the severity of the act. Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to:
d. Excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball.


I realize that "intentional foul" may not be the same as "intentional", but where else will the NFHS tell me what "intentional" means to them? The Funk & Wagnalls definition may not be the same as the NFHS.

How does one know that, in NFHS language, the word "intentional" in "intentional foul" doesn't really mean the same as the word "intentional" by itself? While that may be true, how does one prove that.

I can hang my hat on this: 4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal ... foul of a violent or savage nature ... It may or may not be intentional.

What do you hang your hat on? This: Two free throws if intentional or flagrant, plus ball for throw-in.?



I want to be convinced. I'm looking forward to it. Please give me that little push. I'm almost there.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)

Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Sep 09, 2018 at 01:32pm.
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 01:55pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 811
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Are these the conflicting citations?

Two free throws if intentional or flagrant, plus ball for throw-in.

4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal ... foul of a violent or savage nature ... It may or may not be intentional.


Please let there be more to it than that, otherwise I'm going with 4-19-4 over the other one, and yet, I still feel that I'm wrong, and still need that little push.

If I'm presented with this situation on a written test, I want to get it right and be able to offer more of an explanation than, "Because bob jenkins, and JRutledge, and I, said so".
Much ado about nothing. If the NFHS rules terminology causes confusion, I would advocate a change to either international practice in referring to deliberate and unsporting fouls as "unsporting" if without an ejection, or "disqualifying" if the offender is ejected, or to NCAA/NBA practice in calling them Flagrant 1/Flagrant 2 fouls, to avoid this issue.

Note: in Europe, where FIBA terminology was developed, a player who has fouled out is "excluded", not disqualified from the game (removed from the game, but not the premises; no additional penalties) as in the States. This is why the FIBA rulebook uses "disqualify" in the sense of "eject" (remove from the game and premises + additional penalties). Therefore, disqualifying foul can be used without confusion if this convention is followed. Otherwise, use unsportIng and ejection foul.
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 02:12pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,505
Wouldn't it just be easier if Billy started his own forum?
__________________
in OS I trust
Reply With Quote
  #41 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 02:15pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,822
A William Shakespeare Sighting On The Forum, Is That Cool, Or What ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Much ado about nothing.
Yes, but it's still important to get stuff right, even the little stuff.

Debates like this keep us on our toes. Like JRutledge's reminder about who shoots free throws for a flagrant technical foul versus who shoots free throws for a flagrant personal foul, and where the ball is inbounded for each.

And your reminder about what an ejection is for a player versus what an ejection is for an adult coach.

If nothing else of value comes from this thread, than JRutledge's reminder, and your reminder, makes the debate worth it.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
  #42 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 02:17pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,220
The "intentional or not" is about if the actual act is intentional. You are reading waaaayyyyy too much into this. There is not such foul as an Intentional Flagrant Foul. No such animal.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #43 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 02:20pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
Wouldn't it just be easier if Billy started his own forum?
It would be called, "Twist himself into a pretzel Official's Forum." That is all Billy is doing it arguing with himself about something that no one else is struggling with.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #44 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 02:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
It would be called, "Twist himself into a pretzel Official's Forum." That is all Billy is doing it arguing with himself about something that no one else is struggling with.

Peace
It's a repetitive theme on EVERY post.
__________________
in OS I trust
Reply With Quote
  #45 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 02:22pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,822
Contribute To This Thread In A Positive Way ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
Wouldn't it just be easier if Billy started his own forum?
Go to control panel, edit ignore list, and type in my username. I would never do that to anyone, certainly not deecee, but feel free. Or feel free to complain to the moderators, they have the power to do that is right for the Forum.

Or, how's this for an idea, contribute to this thread in a positive way.
__________________
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

“I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MSU/AZ Block/Charge Play Freddy Basketball 17 Wed Nov 16, 2016 01:45pm
Block/Charge thoughts (video) JetMetFan Basketball 39 Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:55pm
Block/Charge Play stiffler3492 Basketball 38 Thu Dec 13, 2012 09:05am
Block/Charge: RA Play APG Basketball 21 Mon May 07, 2012 03:02pm
Charge and a block on the same play Coach Bill Basketball 33 Thu Jan 24, 2008 04:16pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:17pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1