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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 06, 2018, 07:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
In NFHS, this would initially be a no-call, because neither the defender nor the offensive player are doing anything wrong.
Disagree. Even if this play doesn't end in the flip, I think you have to come out with either a block or a charge.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 06, 2018, 08:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
You might want to rethink that statement. When was LGP actually established? Is isn't necessarily when he stops.
Additionally for ilyazhito, also keep in mind that it was a primary defender, not a secondary defender.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 07, 2018, 07:58am
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I could live with an Intentional Foul (F1).
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 07, 2018, 08:56am
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primary vs. secondary

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Additionally for ilyazhito, also keep in mind that it was a primary defender, not a secondary defender.
I can only speak to NCAA-W rules, but in a fast break situation, all defensive players are initially secondary defenders.

Now, there's certainly interpretation as to when the fast break ends...and when 'initially' no longer applies...
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 07, 2018, 09:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt S. View Post
I can only speak to NCAA-W rules, but in a fast break situation, all defensive players are initially secondary defenders.

Now, there's certainly interpretation as to when the fast break ends...and when 'initially' no longer applies...
In Men's basketball, it has to be an outnumbered break. This is a one on one matchup.

BTW, if you look at the video this is clearly a high school game. It is a playoff game in California for high school. So all of this is interesting, but not relevant to the actual play. Even the comments say the RA does not come into play because it is a high school game.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Fri Sep 07, 2018, 12:50pm
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I would still have no call prior to the defender flipping the offensive player, because neither had done anything illegal to that point (offensive player was jumping to shoot, and defensive player backed up to stay in his way/ contest the shot), whether by NCAA or NFHS rules. However, the flip would be a flagrant foul in my book because that is not a basketball play, unnecessary and excessive contact, and could also be classified as severe , because the player flipped is put into a dangerous position and has no control of how he lands. This is just as bad as the play in the Kansas state playoffs this year where one player undercut another player who was airborne attempting a dunk, and caused him to crash into the backboard stanchion. I would be surprised if the officials do not call this action at least an intentional foul, and I would support a flagrant foul called here.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 01:57pm
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On first watch I had black player with a flagrant for the follow through and slam. Don't know how you only have a common foul. I was also surprised at the low level of T's for the overall chirpiness and crappy player behavior.

How many times in a game can you say "knock it off"?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 05:35pm
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I Want To Play ...

I've decided to play.

Defensive player held legal guarding position. Offensive player didn't charge but jumped over defensive player who then intentionally and flagrantly fouled the offensive airborne shooter who was still in the act of shooting (hadn't returned to the floor yet) before the ball went in the basket. No technical foul because the ball hadn't yet gone in the basket, and the airborne shooter hadn't returned to the floor, so it was a live ball foul.

Count the basket. Offensive player get two free throws for the intentional flagrant foul with the lane cleared and his team gets the ball back at spot closest to the foul. Defensive player gets ejected and sits on the bench for the rest of the game.

I agree with bob jenkins, this would have been more interesting, in terms of how to handle it, if there had been a double foul, or false double foul.

Nice video jeremy341a. Thanks.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Sep 09, 2018 at 09:16am.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 07:53pm
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Good informative situations

Getting ready for up coming HS season and lookin at all these situations are a regularity night in and night out ... with that being said... gets my thinking cap going and is why we should always stay focused !! Thanks for your time
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sat Sep 08, 2018, 08:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billymac View Post

count the basket. Offensive player get two free throws for the intentional foul with the lane cleared and his team gets the ball back at spot closest to the foul. Defensive player gets ejected and sits on the bench for the rest of the game.
??
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 08:46am
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Intentional Foul ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jerkins View Post
??
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
... defensive player who then intentionally and flagrantly fouled the offensive airborne shooter ...
4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal ... foul of a violent or savage nature ... It may or may not be intentional.

Couldn't flipping an opponent over one's shoulder be considered excessive contact and "not a basketball play", i.e., an intentional foul?

The play in the video looks more like a wrestling play to me. Does anybody have a WWE Rulebook, or a WWE Casebook?

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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Sep 09, 2018 at 09:20am.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 09:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal ... foul of a violent or savage nature ... It may or may not be intentional.

Couldn't flipping an opponent over one's shoulder be considered excessive contact and "not a basketball play", i.e., an intentional foul?

The play in the video looks more like a wrestling play to me. Does anybody have a WWE Rulebook, or a WWE Casebook?


You can't eject for an intentional foul. Period.

A flagrant foul can be the result of some intentional acts, but that use of "intentional" is different from the use in Intentional foul.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 09:31am
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The penalty for a flagrant foul is almost the same as the penalty for an intentional foul, the difference is the player is ejected that committed the foul.

Two FT shots and spot of the foul for the throw-in on a play like this.

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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 09:48am
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Intentional Flagrant Foul ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
You can't eject for an intentional foul. Period.
A flagrant foul can be the result of some intentional acts, but that use of "intentional" is different from the use in Intentional foul.
100% agree that one can never be ejected for an intentional foul.

Are you saying that one can never have an intentional flagrant foul?

4-19-4: A flagrant foul may be a personal ... foul of a violent or savage nature ... It may or may not be intentional.

Or that an intentional foul can never be considered to be flagrant?

In this video, I'm definitely (and immediately) coming in with an intentional foul signal (the X), possibly adding the IAABO-unapproved excessive contact signal (drop both hands), and then definitely adding the IAABO-unapproved "heave ho", or "you're outta here", signal (point to the sky).



4-19-3: An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that may or may not be premeditated and is not based solely on the severity of the act. Intentional fouls include, but are not limited to:
a. Contact that neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position.
b. Contact away from the ball with an opponent who is clearly not involved with a play.
c. Contact that is not a legitimate attempt to play the ball/player specifically designed to stop the clock or keep it from starting.
d. Excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball.
e. Contact with a thrower-in as in 9-2-10 Penalty 4.


In other words, I'm "upgrading" my intentional foul to a flagrant foul, and calling it an intentional flagrant foul, which as JRutledge pointed out, simply adds the additional penalty of an ejection (to the bench).

Sometimes an excessive contact intentional foul doesn't rise to the violent, or savage level of a flagrant foul, but sometimes it does, as I believe that it does in this specific case, thus the upgrade to intentional flagrant with the added penalty of ejection.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Sep 09, 2018 at 10:31am.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sun Sep 09, 2018, 10:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post

In other words, I'm "upgrading" my intentional foul to a flagrant foul, and calling it an intentional flagrant foul, which as JRutledge pointed out, simply adds the additional penalty of an ejection.

Sometimes an excessive contact intentional foul doesn't rise to the violent, or savage level of a flagrant foul, but sometimes it does.
There is no such thing as an Intentional Flagrant Foul. A Flagrant Foul is just that, a flagrant act. If that is the case, then you do not need to complicate the issue. Now if it was a technical, then you can have a Flagrant Technical. But that is not enforced the same as a regular flagrant foul. A Flagrant Foul only the fouled player can shoot that unless injured of course. Anyone can shoot a Flagrant Technical Foul. Kind of why the language matters here.

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