Player and Referee Brawl

[SC Official]

Quite frankly, I just think it's laughable the way some of us claim to be holier-than-thou while sitting behind a computer screen. Who's to say none of us would have reacted the same way?

And again, I just don't really think the normal rules that we think of in our avocation have to apply when it comes to street ball like this. If an official wants to stand up for himself in a crapshoot tournament, good for him. And if a punk player or coach wants to take a swing, I applaud you for defending yourself even if it was a little over the top.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Since when are these free-for-all tournaments known for having "sane and decent adults" around?

This was not a high school game with administrators and cops standing guard.

Well, within 5-10 seconds I see 5 grown men in street clothes making there presence known on the court and none of them appeared to want to add to the chaos. So I would say in this specific case he would have had plenty of help had he chose to try to escape the situation.

It was, and always will be, absolutely wrong for a player to be physically violent with an official. At the same time, if an official chooses to put themselves in a YOUTH sporting event, whether it is sanctioned or not, whether there is security or not, whether there is gym administration or not, more times than not the correct thing to do is disengage, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. If the OP video doesn't support that philosophy than I don't know what does.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Quite frankly, I just think it's laughable the way some of us claim to be holier-than-thou while sitting behind a computer screen. Who's to say none of us would have reacted the same way?

And again, I just don't really think the normal rules that we think of in our avocation have to apply when it comes to street ball like this. If an official wants to stand up for himself in a crapshoot tournament, good for him. And if a punk player or coach wants to take a swing, I applaud you for defending yourself even if it was a little over the top.

It's not holier-than-thou, it's what rational, mature ADULTS should try to do, at all costs, when working in an environment with MINORS. If you think you would get a different opinion from law enforcement professionals, then I think that's pretty laughable......

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

It's not holier-than-thou, it's what rational, mature ADULTS should try to do, at all costs, when working in an environment with MINORS. If you think you would get a different opinion from law enforcement professionals, then I think that's pretty laughable......

Again, I think we're holding these officials to a higher standard than we hold other people who are in positions of authority during situations like this.

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[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Again, I think we're holding these officials to a higher standard than we hold other people who are in positions of authority during situations like this.

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I don't know what kind of people you're normally around but I wouldn't expect most people I'm normally around in my day-to-day life to respond like that, ever. That sort of response is simply not mature in any way.

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Again, I think we're holding these officials to a higher standard than we hold other people who are in positions of authority during situations like this.

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Positions of authority in the general sense, or positions of authority over minors/youth? BIG difference, for many different reasons.

I can think of no situation where I would be ok with a school principal or teacher doing what that official did, say if a student initiated violence with a push or a punch. Neither would this be acceptable for a youth coach in any sport, who's first instinct and reaction was to 'fight back' or charge a minor who he is coaching. So frankly, I cannot think of any position of authority of minors where I would think it would be reasonable to have the initial or first instinct to fight back or defend myself physically. Only the very last resort when all other options fail.....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Positions of authority in the general sense, or positions of authority over minors/youth? BIG difference, for many different reasons.

I can think of no situation where I would be ok with a school principal or teacher doing what that official did, say if a student initiated violence with a push or a punch. Neither would this be acceptable for a youth coach in any sport, who's first instinct and reaction was to 'fight back' or charge a minor who he is coaching. So frankly, I cannot think of any position of authority of minors where I would think it would be reasonable to have the initial or first instinct to fight back or defend myself physically. Only the very last resort when all other options fail.....

There were no principals or school administrators or teachers involved. That is is kind of the point. If this was a Men's league, this is the same possible situation. And I have seen many minors try to fight teacher or other school personnel.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Positions of authority in the general sense, or positions of authority over minors/youth? BIG difference, for many different reasons.

I can think of no situation where I would be ok with a school principal or teacher doing what that official did, say if a student initiated violence with a push or a punch. Neither would this be acceptable for a youth coach in any sport, who's first instinct and reaction was to 'fight back' or charge a minor who he is coaching. So frankly, I cannot think of any position of authority of minors where I would think it would be reasonable to have the initial or first instinct to fight back or defend myself physically. Only the very last resort when all other options fail.....

I've seen plenty of videos of minors being manhandled, punched, or forcefully put to the ground by adults in scholastic environments. In those situations I've never heard that the children should be treated differently than adults who become violent or aggressive. The response is always "if the student would have complied, he wouldn't have been...."

[Paintguru]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And I have seen many minors try to fight teacher or other school personnel.

IUgrad92 is spot on. Do the teachers or other school personnel disengage the student or charge back at them?

Self-defense, in my mind, is an action needed to eliminate an immediate danger to one self. If a person (kid or adult) is over me and I'm in immediate danger, I will do whatever I need to do to get them off of me and get myself out of harms way. After that point, it is my job to remove myself and my teammates from the situation as fast as possible. If my partner is still engaged, of course I go to help. However, it also means that once we're clear of immediate danger, we run to our cars and leave the area as quickly as possible if necessary. This is standard operating procedure for other sports I've officiated, so I'm not quite sure why basketball would be any different. If there are truly "no sane adults or other authority personnel" at the game, why would you be crazy enough to stick around and re-engage an attacker?

[SC Official]

While we can preach the "the court is an extension of the classroom" mantra all we want, comparing a fracas in school to one that happens on the court in an offseason basketball tournament is insane.

Who's to say some punk wasn't going to run after the officials if they tucked their tails and ran to the parking lot?

[ilyazhito]

"Athletic events are an extension of the classroom", IMO, is only valid for athletic events that are legitimately education-based, such as a middle school, high school, or college game played with student-athletes, teacher-coaches (at least through the high school level, inclusive), and adequate security and supervision for participants.

My MO in any non-scholastic game without adequate supervision is to stop the game if there are any inflammatory situations, resolve them, if possible, and then get out of Dodge if the $#&* hits the fan.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by Paintguru

IUgrad92 is spot on. Do the teachers or other school personnel disengage the student or charge back at them?

Self-defense, in my mind, is an action needed to eliminate an immediate danger to one self. If a person (kid or adult) is over me and I'm in immediate danger, I will do whatever I need to do to get them off of me and get myself out of harms way. After that point, it is my job to remove myself and my teammates from the situation as fast as possible. If my partner is still engaged, of course I go to help. However, it also means that once we're clear of immediate danger, we run to our cars and leave the area as quickly as possible if necessary. This is standard operating procedure for other sports I've officiated, so I'm not quite sure why basketball would be any different.

If there are truly "no sane adults or other authority personnel" at the game, why would you be crazy enough to stick around and re-engage an attacker?

This.

Originally Posted by Paintguru

Self-defense, in my mind, is an action needed to eliminate an immediate danger to one self. If a person (kid or adult) is over me and I'm in immediate danger, I will do whatever I need to do to get them off of me and get myself out of harms way. After that point, it is my job to remove myself and my teammates from the situation as fast as possible. If my partner is still engaged, of course I go to help. However, it also means that once we're clear of immediate danger, we run to our cars and leave the area as quickly as possible if necessary. This is standard operating procedure for other sports I've officiated, so I'm not quite sure why basketball would be any different. If there are truly "no sane adults or other authority personnel" at the game, why would you be crazy enough to stick around and re-engage an attacker?

And, this.

[sdoebler]

It's hard to say what will be done in the moment. Another similar video that was posted within the last year was an off duty police officer shoving a teenage female official. Calmer heads should prevail but you never know what will be done by players or officials when unique situations filled with adrenaline arise.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

It's hard to say what will be done in the moment. Another similar video that was posted within the last year was an off duty police officer shoving a teenage female official. Calmer heads should prevail but you never know what will be done by players or officials when unique situations filled with adrenaline arise.

Agreed. Noone can ever definitively predict with 100% accuracy what will or won't happen in situations like this.

However, that is not the point.

Even though this particular forum's posts are dominated by regulars, there are even more officials, coaches, and probably some parents & players that lurk (many who are inexperienced officials or potential new officials/considering joining the fraternity).

At the very least, the content of answers coming from experienced officials should reflect best practices rather than excusing, dismissing or even indulging ego and/or fulfilling the desire to show someone what's what when in a seemingly overwhelming situation - regardless of whether or not the incident occurred in an NFHS game or on a "glorified playground".

I could be way off with that assessment/opinion, but, this forum - for the most part - has proven to be extremely educational and helpful in it's content. But, some of the responses in this thread are, at the very least, head-scratchers, if not outright jaw droppers.

[SC Official]

Spare me.

Defending oneself = ego. Laughable.