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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 05, 2018, 10:41am
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M NCAA fouled on shot, loses it, then shoots again while airborne. Rules reference pl

Can anyone help with a case or rules citation of the above play? I can't find it. TIA.
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Old Wed Jun 06, 2018, 02:25pm
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Not sure why it would not count. This play happens frequently. I must be missing something normally obvious.
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Old Wed Jun 06, 2018, 02:50pm
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Continuous motion and the definition of the end of a try.

It might count or it might not depending on the above factors. If the ball is out of the shooter's hands and clearly can't go in the try has ended and the ball is dead. They don't get to grab it and take another try. If they're bobbling it on the way up, however, and stabilize it, it can count.
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Old Wed Jun 06, 2018, 02:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Not sure why it would not count. This play happens frequently. I must be missing something normally obvious.
It's almost always counted. But reading the rule on continuous motion (assuming college is similar to NFHS), it arguably should not -- the second shooting movement (after re-gathering the lost ball) occurred after the foul so continuous motion wouldn't apply.

I remember a thread on this probably a year or two ago with a video.
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Old Wed Jun 06, 2018, 10:35pm
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I have been officiating/playing/coaching/spectating for over 40 years and have never seen it not count.
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Old Thu Jun 07, 2018, 05:57am
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Relevant NFHS Language ...

If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she
is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or
stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any
activity while holding the ball.

The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try
or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne
shooter.

The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the
throw is unsuccessful,
when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball
becomes dead.


Based on this language, I don't believe that the goal should count in a high school game.

Of course, some may have differing views regarding the meanings of "customary", "clearly", and "certain".

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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jun 07, 2018 at 06:03am.
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Old Thu Jun 07, 2018, 10:37am
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"Differing views"? Correct, as based on the language, I believe that the goal should count in any game.

Again, this is based on what I have pictured in my head as the play based on the OP. Happens frequently. Furthermore, if, for those that feel that way, by rule it is to not count, then refer to my tagline.....again.
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Old Thu Jun 07, 2018, 10:53am
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I do not know how frequent this is. I do know that I have seen players have the ball knocked slightly away or not clean during the foul and they regain the ball or tap it in the basket. I would not consider that a miss or end of the try unless the ball completely was away from them. Maybe then I could see not counting a goal on a foul. But that is a stretch IMO to do otherwise.

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Old Thu Jun 07, 2018, 05:49pm
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Just Like A Diamond ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
...regarding the meanings of "customary", "clearly", and "certain".
I just realized that there is a fourth "c", continuous.

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Old Thu Jun 07, 2018, 06:00pm
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Dead Ball, Can't Score ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I would not consider that a miss or end of the try unless the ball completely was away from them.
(NFHS) Agree. If the ball completely leaves the player's grasp, and then they are somehow are able to retrieve the ball, then the try certainly ended when the ball left the shooter's hand, and the ball becomes dead. The retrieval of the ball is certainly not a customary arm movement. The loss and retrieval of the ball is certainly not a continuous motion. The release of the ball means that it's in flight, ending the act of shooting.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Fri Jun 08, 2018 at 05:26am.
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Old Thu Jun 07, 2018, 06:04pm
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Frequently ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Happens frequently ...
Frequently? I've had it happen exactly once in thirty-seven years. I didn't count the goal, and gave the fouled shooter two free throws. Coach politely questioned me, and really didn't put up much of an argument.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jun 07, 2018 at 06:10pm.
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Old Thu Jun 07, 2018, 09:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Frequently? I've had it happen exactly once in thirty-seven years. I didn't count the goal, and gave the fouled shooter two free throws. Coach politely questioned me, and really didn't put up much of an argument.
Respectfully, say what? Are you telling me in 37 years you have not had a player drive for a layup, begin his upward motion, lose control (although very, very briefly) from a defensive foul/deflection, regain control, and score the basket? It happened to me twice last night in a pickup game. You have not had a player get hammered (bye bye customary arm movement), contorted their body, thrown the ball towards the hoop making it and scoring it?

Methinks we are not on the same page when it comes to understanding the OP.
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Old Thu Jun 07, 2018, 10:47pm
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No Double Dipping ......

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Are you telling me you have not had a player drive for a layup, begin his upward motion, lose control (although very, very briefly) from a defensive foul/deflection, regain control, and score the basket?
If by lose control you mean loses complete contact with the ball with both hands at the same time, in essence attempting two separate shots? Yes, only called it once. No basket, two free throws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
You have not had a player get hammered (bye bye customary arm movement), contorted their body, thrown the ball towards the hoop making it and scoring it?
No loss of control, at least one hand on the ball at all times? Yes, called it hundreds of times. Score the goal, one free throw.

Note: I would allow a player (count basket, one free throw) moving the ball from hand to hand in a controlled manner, with the ball momentarily losing contact with both hands, but if the ball pops up into the air, and the player grabs it and shoots a second time, no basket, two free throws.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Jun 07, 2018 at 11:43pm.
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Old Fri Jun 08, 2018, 09:34am
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I will put it this way, I have rarely seen or can remember where such a play has happened. Yes, players have lost the ball, but usually they are not able to complete the shot. But rarely do they completely lose the ball, then somehow in the air get the ball back and then complete a shot. And this is certainly something that is not frequently happening.

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Old Fri Jun 08, 2018, 11:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If by lose control you mean loses complete contact with the ball with both hands at the same time, in essence attempting two separate shots? Yes, only called it once. No basket, two free throws.


No loss of control, at least one hand on the ball at all times? Yes, called it hundreds of times. Score the goal, one free throw.

Note: I would allow a player (count basket, one free throw) moving the ball from hand to hand in a controlled manner, with the ball momentarily losing contact with both hands, but if the ball pops up into the air, and the player grabs it and shoots a second time, no basket, two free throws.
Aha, so the real question regards the OP. What did the OP mean by "loses it"?
For you BMAC, losing control means no contact with ball by either hand at same time. For me, losing control does not mean that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
But rarely do they completely lose the ball, then somehow in the air get the ball back and then complete a shot. And this is certainly something that is not frequently happening.

Peace
Yes, agree.
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