Mechanics and clock situations (Video)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

In Play 1, the blarge was handled correctly (both calls were reported to the table, and the ball was given to Red). However, both officials should not have immediately signalled their fouls. I don't know if the L and C were watching NBA videos the day before, because L immediately came up with a punch, instead of stopping the clock, and C did the hitting-the-hips, which is an NCAAW/NBA signal. If L and C both put up a fist, the clock would stop, and both would have a moment to decide whose call it is, and what the call is, and thus the double-foul scenario would be avoided. In this play, the drive started in C's PCA (Trail is not in the picture, because it is a transition play), so the call should ideally go to C.

Yes, I'm sure that this HS crew spent the night before the state finals watching NBA videos so they could apply NBA mechanics to the game. The play comes right down the middle, so L can get it. And, it's (for whatever reason) much harder for L to hold up on the signal than it is for C/T to do so. As it turns out, C had a better look -- but I can't fault L for making the call.

[sdoebler]

1. Need to be slow to show from the C there. Looks like that is his plan as he comes in pretty slow and then gives a pretty weak signal but not sure all that was going on.

2. You don't have precision timing system for final 8 in IL? We have them for the final 8 in our state.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

2. You don't have precision timing system for final 8 in IL? We have them for the final 8 in our state.

We don’t use PTS at all here. In fact I would wager that that’s the case in most states.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

1. Need to be slow to show from the C there. Looks like that is his plan as he comes in pretty slow and then gives a pretty weak signal but not sure all that was going on.

2. You don't have precision timing system for final 8 in IL? We have them for the final 8 in our state.

I would be surprised too, because Carver Arena, where the state games are played, is home to a D1 university, many of whom use PTS. I believe that officials must be especially aware of starting and stopping the clock properly when there is no PTS, and not rely too much on the system when it is there (use good mechanics, so the operator knows to step in when the system fails).

My comment on NBA videos was not meant seriously, merely to highlight the use of non-approved mechanics at a high school game. If the Lead stopped the clock with a fist (the correct thing to do in HS and college), we would not have a blarge, since it was the Lead's premature preliminary signal that led to the double foul.

[SC Official]

The blarge could've been prevented with a good pregame.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The blarge could've been prevented with a good pregame.

I believe that they had to have covered primary coverage area and double whistles in pregame, with the extra time they had from arriving to the arena earlier. Maybe even state tournament officials forget sometimes .

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I believe that they had to have covered primary coverage area and double whistles in pregame, with the extra time they had from arriving to the arena earlier. Maybe even state tournament officials forget sometimes .

Primary coverage areas really do not apply in transition. You have to help out in many situations until everyone is settled in the FC. This was one of these situations that either official could have had a whistle in theory.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I believe that they had to have covered primary coverage area and double whistles in pregame, with the extra time they had from arriving to the arena earlier. Maybe even state tournament officials forget sometimes .

Learn this right now, bud: blue text = sarcasm on this forum.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SC Official

blue text = sarcasm

I'm confused -- that's in blue, so is it true or is it sarcasm?

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I would be surprised too, because Carver Arena, where the state games are played, is home to a D1 university, many of whom use PTS. I believe that officials must be especially aware of starting and stopping the clock properly when there is no PTS, and not rely too much on the system when it is there (use good mechanics, so the operator knows to step in when the system fails).

If the arena already has PTS then that's just dumb not to use it. The officials don't even have to do anything different -- they can count and chop clock as normal and not even have to press their button. The clock can be started by a guy at the table as normal and the PTS packs used only to stop the clock.

[ilyazhito]

I totally agree. But you still need to be aware of clock status, PTS or no PTS.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by AremRed

If the arena already has PTS then that's just dumb not to use it. The officials don't even have to do anything different -- they can count and chop clock as normal and not even have to press their button. The clock can be started by a guy at the table as normal and the PTS packs used only to stop the clock.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I would be surprised too, because Carver Arena, where the state games are played, is home to a D1 university, many of whom use PTS. I believe that officials must be especially aware of starting and stopping the clock properly when there is no PTS, and not rely too much on the system when it is there (use good mechanics, so the operator knows to step in when the system fails).

I need to state this. PTS is not the end all be all of solving clock problems. You still can have clock problems and you see they have them with the PTS. In the NCAA Tournament, there was a clock malfunction that helped cause a debate of if a player could be substituted for during that malfunction. My understanding the NCAA Tournament uses PTS in all their games. So assuming that would solve that issue is kind of silly when many big arenas use that system and we still see clock issues.

Secondly, it is likely not used because no official uses that system at all during the season and you might not want the first time to be the State Finals, which if not used properly or malfunctions, that would be an issue as well.

Originally Posted by AremRed

My comment on NBA videos was not meant seriously, merely to highlight the use of non-approved mechanics at a high school game. If the Lead stopped the clock with a fist (the correct thing to do in HS and college), we would not have a blarge, since it was the Lead's premature preliminary signal that led to the double foul.

I disagree. The officials did not see the other official. Stopping the clock might have helped, but if you never recognize that your partner has a whistle then it does not matter. Even the Center held for some time but he clearly did not see his partner at all.

And for the record, I rarely know many officials that use the exact and proper mechanic in these situations. It is a great goal, but it is not often what happens in real life.

Peace

[sdoebler]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I need to state this. PTS is not the end all be all of solving clock problems. You still can have clock problems and you see they have them with the PTS. In the NCAA Tournament, there was a clock malfunction that helped cause a debate of if a player could be substituted for during that malfunction. My understanding the NCAA Tournament uses PTS in all their games. So assuming that would solve that issue is kind of silly when many big arenas use that system and we still see clock issues.

Secondly, it is likely not used because no official uses that system at all during the season and you might not want the first time to be the State Finals, which if not used properly or malfunctions, that would be an issue as well.

Peace

No one said it was end all be all. The system would have very likely been very beneficial in the situation shown.

[SC Official]

Am I missing something here or do most states use PTS in the latter rounds of the postseason? Why are people acting all surprised that it wasn't used here?

Our (SC) state finals are in Columbia at the UofSC arena and PTS has never been used. I assumed that was the norm.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by sdoebler

No one said it was end all be all. The system would have very likely been very beneficial in the situation shown.

It might have like a lot of things in life "might" do something. But the problem again if you were paying attention, no one uses this system even part of the playoffs. So the biggest games of the year now have officials doing something they have not used likely their entire career until this very moment. So not just worrying about calling the game and doing all the other things we do as officials, now they have to add the usage of a device they might not even know how it works. I have used the system maybe 4 times total in my career. And the last time was over 10 years ago if I recall. So unless you use this system on an even semi-regular basis, I think that is the reason it is not used. It might not even be available to the IHSA either as assumed.

Peace