For NBA fans, Lance/Green jump ball last night

[thedewed]

Just curious, what I saw was Lance get the tie up with Green on the ball as Green held it over his head, then Green in trying to protect the ball twisted so that Lance's arms end up around Green's head. One official had jump ball, other had foul on Lance. The jump ball call came before the foul call, and then is the sequence as well, i.e. the ball was tied up, then as Lance kept his hands on the ball Green moved so that Lance's arms looked to be around Green's head.

The question, I know that customarily if there is a foul and jump, the jump prevails, but is that always the case if the jump came first? I would think that the first to occur would prevail?

And of course, if the defender is keeping his hands on the ball and the movement of both ends up with arms into the original ball handler, I don't see that as a foul. We see it more often on a tie up up top, then one player pulls the ball down and pulls the other player over him.

[ilyazhito]

If the defender ties up the ball and knees (or otherwise illegally contacts) the offensive player to get control of the ball, that would be a situation where a foul would be called rather than the jump ball

[Raymond]

Didn't the NBA replay center give an explanation of the call to the announcing crew?

[thedewed]

Originally Posted by Raymond

Didn't the NBA replay center give an explanation of the call to the announcing crew?

the replay center didn't address which happened first, and the reality was there was a tie up above the head, Lance keeps his hands on the ball as they wrestle around and the subsequent contact was called a foul. It's also clear that the jump ball call happened before the foul call. There wasn't any kneeing going on, and I don't care either way in terms of rooting interest, it just begged the question, if the jump ball in fact happens first, then the contact that is considered a foul, I would think the jump ball takes precedent, and the ball is then dead so that the subsequent activity is ignored unless flagrant/intentional whatever you want to call it.

Kenny Smith was trying to point it out and asking, but nobody else on the set seemed to understand what he was trying to get at.

I understand it the activity leading to a foul call happens simultaneously, or leads to the tie up, it takes precedent, but if the tie up is first, then conduct rising to a foul happens, the jump takes precedent. But I don't know what the books say, and I've never seen it called that way. It always goes to foul if one official has foul call, and the other has a jump ball, they don't ever get together to determine what happened first from what I've seen. And I suppose nearly all the time the foul conduct happens simultaneous or before the tie up. I just don't know that it should always be automatically a foul in the situation I'm describing.

[Jay R]

Pat Fraher indicated a foul briefly before changing his call to a jump ball (in fact he had a fist before the play started giving the impression he was anticipating a foul). Ken Mayer called a foul. FWIW, I thought it was a jump ball.

[Pantherdreams]

If contact beyond incidental leads to or it the cause of a tie up. Foul.

If the ball is tied up first, neither side is under any obligation to let go. So movements/strength/contortion on either the part of either player that results in contact happening after this fact unless its an aggressive non basketball play should be a jump ball IMO.

[thedewed]

yes you are right, the official in front of the bench did initially indicate foul, then switched. the replay center guy said the foul clearly happened before the jump ball. I didn't see it that way. I do not know if I've ever seen a jump ball by one official and foul by a 2nd end up being a jump ball, but by indicating that the foul came first, the replay center is implying that if the jump came first, it would have been a jump. I personally thought it was a jump.

[TopicalTropical]

off topic but about the replay center

I'm curious if they allow audio, by that I mean are they listening to the play by play people as that could influence how they view the call. I was befuddled watching the Blazers/Pelicans game. I thought CJ on the blazers made an amazing play putting his leg up after falling so not to hit out of bounds. Ref said out of bounds on him, but I thought it could have been overturned. It wasn't and I get that as it was very close but in a close game these matter.
And then shortly after, Holiday on the Pelicans was called for going out of bounds. On review the call was overturned. The TV people thought it was going to be, but again it was extremely close and I did not see any clear evidence to overturn it. Two important calls that went against the Blazers and I did not really understand why one call gets overturned and not the first.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by thedewed

the replay center didn't address which happened first, and the reality was there was a tie up above the head, Lance keeps his hands on the ball as they wrestle around and the subsequent contact was called a foul. It's also clear that the jump ball call happened before the foul call. There wasn't any kneeing going on, and I don't care either way in terms of rooting interest, it just begged the question, if the jump ball in fact happens first, then the contact that is considered a foul, I would think the jump ball takes precedent, and the ball is then dead so that the subsequent activity is ignored unless flagrant/intentional whatever you want to call it.

Kenny Smith was trying to point it out and asking, but nobody else on the set seemed to understand what he was trying to get at.

I understand it the activity leading to a foul call happens simultaneously, or leads to the tie up, it takes precedent, but if the tie up is first, then conduct rising to a foul happens, the jump takes precedent. But I don't know what the books say, and I've never seen it called that way. It always goes to foul if one official has foul call, and the other has a jump ball, they don't ever get together to determine what happened first from what I've seen. And I suppose nearly all the time the foul conduct happens simultaneous or before the tie up. I just don't know that it should always be automatically a foul in the situation I'm describing.

Yes, they did. When simultaneous, foul supersedes. Borgia said it more than once.

[justacoach]

Making the Call: April 22, 2018 | NBA Official

[thedewed]

what I don't agree with the replay center on in this case is the statement that the headlock came before the hands on the ball. that's not the case.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by thedewed

what I don't agree with the replay center on in this case is the statement that the headlock came before the hands on the ball. that's not the case.

You disagree with their judgment.

What would you like to happen now?

[thedewed]

Originally Posted by Raymond

You disagree with their judgment.

What would you like to happen now?

Since the game was out of reach, we're going to go ahead and let it go.

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

https://ak-static.cms.nba.com/wp-con...04-22-2018.pdf

L2M report says CC:

During his attempt to tie up the ball, Stephenson (IND) wraps his arms around Green's (CLE) head/neck and commits a foul. Since the foul precedes a potential jump ball, the foul takes precedence and is correctly called. Referees use replay to confirm that no hostile act occurred during the dead ball situation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Raymond

You disagree with their judgment. What would you like to happen now?