Can an NCAA Basketball Official Work Both Sexes?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Insane how low-level college supervisors often like to act like they’re assigning games with 4-figure checks.

That wouldn’t fly in the southeast where working G/B doubleheaders is the norm and not optional in many states (GA, SC, and NC for sure). No low-level college assigner worth his salt would try that without getting backlash.

Well that might be something that is local too. In the conferences I work, we are not explicitely told to stop doing anything like that, but it is understood if you want to continue to work Men's college, you might have to give something up on the back end. And if you don't, then they will find someone else that will. One of my conferences tell guys he does not want them doing a high school game before his college games. Again if you do not comply, he will find someone else.

Rich lives in Wisconsin and I am sure he gets guys that work in the same conferneces that are in my area that have teams in both Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana. Neither of these states have this doubleheader mess that is in other parts of the country. So it is not quite insane, it is a choice. And again, they have people that will gladly comply with that request and do not like doing girl's basketball at all anyway. It is not a hard decision.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well that might be something that is local too. In the conferences I work, we are not explicitely told to stop doing anything like that, but it is understood if you want to continue to work Men's college, you might have to give something up on the back end. And if you don't, then they will find someone else that will. One of my conferences tell guys he does not want them doing a high school game before his college games. Again if you do not comply, he will find someone else.

Rich lives in Wisconsin and I am sure he gets guys that work in the same conferneces that are in my area that have teams in both Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana. Neither of these states have this doubleheader mess that is in other parts of the country. So it is not quite insane, it is a choice. And again, they have people that will gladly comply with that request and do not like doing girl's basketball at all anyway. It is not a hard decision.

My "insane" comment was more of just a general reference to JUCO/NAIA/D-3 assigners thinking way more highly of themselves and their sub-$200 games than they ought to.

I agree with you that there will always be officials willing to do whatever it takes to get "prestigious" games. Most college assigners don't need every official on their roster. But if a sub-D2 assigner down here tried that "you can't work high school" nonsense down here, it just wouldn't fly. If you're not working anything above D-3 basketball, to me it wouldn't be worth it to give up high school ball (which would mean giving up girls and boys down here) to drive significantly further for empty gyms and not a ton of money, and I bet a lot of sub-D2 officials I know would feel the same way.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

My "insane" comment was more of just a general reference to JUCO/NAIA/D-3 assigners thinking way more highly of themselves and their sub-$200 games than they ought to.

I agree with you that there will always be officials willing to do whatever it takes to get "prestigious" games. Most college assigners don't need every official on their roster. But if a sub-D2 assigner down here tried that "you can't work high school" nonsense down here, it just wouldn't fly. If you're not working anything above D-3 basketball, to me it wouldn't be worth it to give up high school ball (which would mean giving up girls and boys down here) to drive significantly further for empty gyms and not a ton of money, and I bet a lot of sub-D2 officials I know would feel the same way.

The comment was about girl's basketball only. I know many officials that see the tea-leaves and they give up things based on their personal lives and personal goals. In the three states I mentioned, there is a lot of competition to work D3 and D2, let alone NAIA and JUCO. Officials have to figure out how to manage all those schedules. And even boy's high school can go if the person is in the right situation. And in this area, not all games are incredibly far away either. More schools and more opportunities to work college ball. But also a one-game check in college is significantly bigger than any high school check and you might travel farther in some cases.

Again it is at the end it is about your personal goals. Not everyone is trying to be a State Final official. There was an official that just worked the 4A State Finals in my state that said he was not taking any more high school playoffs because of the college opportunities that he has had to turn down to work the State Playoffs. And maybe when you take away choices of people, you eliminate who officiates at the high school level.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Well that might be something that is local too. In the conferences I work, we are not explicitely told to stop doing anything like that, but it is understood if you want to continue to work Men's college, you might have to give something up on the back end. And if you don't, then they will find someone else that will. One of my conferences tell guys he does not want them doing a high school game before his college games. Again if you do not comply, he will find someone else.



Rich lives in Wisconsin and I am sure he gets guys that work in the same conferneces that are in my area that have teams in both Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana. Neither of these states have this doubleheader mess that is in other parts of the country. So it is not quite insane, it is a choice. And again, they have people that will gladly comply with that request and do not like doing girl's basketball at all anyway. It is not a hard decision.



Peace

Some of tnose officials get assignments from me, and some don't.

I get why they can't do girls games, but a lot of officials would prefer doing more boys games. With a few exceptions, you either work both for me or neither.


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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Some of tnose officials get assignments from me, and some don't.

I get why they can't do girls games, but a lot of officials would prefer doing more boys games. With a few exceptions, you either work both for me or neither.

When you are an independent contractor, we all have a choice. This does not pay me enough (with the headache) to be told what I am going to leave my house to do. Maybe if we gave officials choices, they might be more of us around. But one of the reasons I think we lose officials is because we act like they have to decide what they should do. And I am talking about the high school level. Someone doing college has made several choices in that process.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

When you are an independent contractor, we all have a choice. This does not pay me enough (with the headache) to be told what I am going to leave my house to do. Maybe if we gave officials choices, they might be more of us around. But one of the reasons I think we lose officials is because we act like they have to decide what they should do. And I am talking about the high school level. Someone doing college has made several choices in that process.



Peace

Perhaps if I had a shortage at the varsity level....but in hoops right now I don't.

But as an official I work both and then get 60% girls games from some assigners cause other assigners cater to people with requests for one gender only, mostly boys. So I try not to do a lot of this where I can avoid it.


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[SC Official]

Let's be real, we're only independent contractors in form and only somewhat in substance. Sure, we can choose to work for whatever assigners we want, until we get told we're not allowed to by a different assigner.

"You don't have to work for an assigner if you don't want to follow his rules." Guess what? I can quit my job if I don't want to follow my employer's rules, too. That's no different from being an employee.

And I'm not saying I want to be employed by my state association or an assigner. Just pointing out that saying "we're independent contractors" is just a formality and not really representative of what often goes on in this business.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Let's be real, we're only independent contractors in form and only somewhat in substance. Sure, we can choose to work for whatever assigners we want, until we get told we're not allowed to by a different assigner.
....

Perfect examples of that are TBOA and Board 94 in southeast Virginia. You should hear some of the horror stories in regards to how they manipulate and control officials. The #1 reason I chose to commute to Richmond when I was need of a public school schedule 6 years ago.

I always thought one of the main functions of Arbiter was to let supervisors know when you are available to work.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Let's be real, we're only independent contractors in form and only somewhat in substance. Sure, we can choose to work for whatever assigners we want, until we get told we're not allowed to by a different assigner.

"You don't have to work for an assigner if you don't want to follow his rules." Guess what? I can quit my job if I don't want to follow my employer's rules, too. That's no different from being an employee.

And I'm not saying I want to be employed by my state association or an assigner. Just pointing out that saying "we're independent contractors" is just a formality and not really representative of what often goes on in this business.

In our state we have a strong independent contractor law that has gone after associations for trying to play this game. I am not suggesting that people sue to get a certain right, but if you just quit, then that does not help anyone either. So yes we are independent contractors on my end, because I know I can say no to any potential assignment. But then again no one is telling me what kind of games I can or cannot work here. It is truely a choice.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I know I can say no to any potential assignment.

If we do not accept any high school assignment on a day/time that we have not closed off on Arbiter, it's a $15.00 fine.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In our state we have a strong independent contractor law that has gone after associations for trying to play this game. I am not suggesting that people sue to get a certain right, but if you just quit, then that does not help anyone either. So yes we are independent contractors on my end, because I know I can say no to any potential assignment. But then again no one is telling me what kind of games I can or cannot work here. It is truely a choice.

Peace

Does the law come down on assigners (high school or college) who tell their officials "you can't work for so-and-so" or "you can't work girls basketball" or "you can't work high school"? Doubtful.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Perhaps if I had a shortage at the varsity level....but in hoops right now I don't.

But as an official I work both and then get 60% girls games from some assigners cause other assigners cater to people with requests for one gender only, mostly boys. So I try not to do a lot of this where I can avoid it.

I am not saying so much you, but the places that are doing these doubleheaders probably are having those issues. I know just trying to get to a game earlier in the day with work and other family obligations it is hard enough to do one game, but two?

And again, people are going to ultimately make choices of things they wish to do. Yes maybe not a problem at the varsity level and we do not have a shortage in this area either right now. It might be a problem down the road if you tell people what they have to do to work for what we get paid at the high school level. I think we focus so much on why officials would not work high school games because of sportsmanship or pay, but this to me also annoys officials as they have other obligations. I am personally exhausted working more than 4 days a week during the season and certainly do not like it when I have to work things I choose to not want to do.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am not saying so much you, but the places that are doing these doubleheaders probably are having those issues. I know just trying to get to a game earlier in the day with work and other family obligations it is hard enough to do one game, but two?

And again, people are going to ultimately make choices of things they wish to do. Yes maybe not a problem at the varsity level and we do not have a shortage in this area either right now. It might be a problem down the road if you tell people what they have to do to work for what we get paid at the high school level. I think we focus so much on why officials would not work high school games because of sportsmanship or pay, but this to me also annoys officials as they have other obligations. I am personally exhausted working more than 4 days a week during the season and certainly do not like it when I have to work things I choose to not want to do.

Peace

I have had some crews burn bridges by telling me they will only do boys and then getting angry when I say that I might not have anything for them then. Others have earned that, but when people working 4-5 years try to tell me that's what they're doing, I wish them luck.

My point was and is this -- just cause someone's an IC and wants to line up their schedule a certain way doesn't mean I'm obligated to fulfill those desires.

We're a small school conference and some people avoid us for that reason -- then again, we pay more than just about every conference in the area and I have no shortage of people who want to work varsity contests.

Desire to work for us will usually trump ability if the better official is high maintenance.