"Hey Ref, that's five seconds!"

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Honestly, who gives a damn about FIBA? Don't most of the world's best players come from this country?

And I would not get rid of anything without a change of the shot clock provision. If there is no shot clock, then keep the rule the same.

Peace

At least 100 active NBA players are foreign (either foreign-born or have foreign nationality). This might be a reason why USA Basketball recommended that US high schools adopt FIBA rules instead of NFHS rules. If a body as prominent as USA Basketball recommends that, we should at least pay attention to it, and try to understand the rules it plays by.

I would agree with you on not changing the closely guarded rule until the shot clock changes. In fact, I have made a sample shot clock proposal in the "HS Shot Clock" thread. MD is a shot clock state, so it can't sit on the rules committee and give suggestions, but if you do not come from a shot clock state, maybe you can take a look at the proposal, give me some suggestions on how to make it better, and forward it to your state's rules interpreter.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

At least 100 active NBA players are foreign (either foreign-born or have foreign nationality). This might be a reason why USA Basketball recommended that US high schools adopt FIBA rules instead of NFHS rules. If a body as prominent as USA Basketball recommends that, we should at least pay attention to it, and try to understand the rules it plays by.

And not even a third are the players in the NBA, which means that most players in the top league in the world, did not play with any FIBA rules in their pre-NBA years.

Who cares what USA Basketball recommends? The players that do not even play FIBA rules on a regular, dominate every tournament and have done so for years. It is a story when the US does not win the Olympics or the World Championships. This is not FIFA we are talking about here.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I would agree with you on not changing the closely guarded rule until the shot clock changes. In fact, I have made a sample shot clock proposal in the "HS Shot Clock" thread. MD is a shot clock state, so it can't sit on the rules committee and give suggestions, but if you do not come from a shot clock state, maybe you can take a look at the proposal, give me some suggestions on how to make it better, and forward it to your state's rules interpreter.

I work shot clock games working college games and there is nothing special about the shot clock. As stated before, many times there are more mess ups with the shot clock than there are times it seems to work. And at the college level, they hire people all the time just to do that. I would not be opposed to a shot clock in principle, but it is the problems and the controversies that will be coming. We have enough of those in high school games with controversy with the officials alone in the games. Do we really want more issues? I know I don't. If they bring it in I would adjust, but that does not mean I am clamoring to have those issues.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I work shot clock games working college games and there is nothing special about the shot clock. As stated before, many times there are more mess ups with the shot clock than there are times it seems to work. And at the college level, they hire people all the time just to do that.

Thanks for the inside information. As a high school official with only a passing interest in college, or professional, basketball, I just assumed that the "big boys" would have the shot clock down pat, easy peasy lemon squeezy, no problems. If what you're saying is that shot clock problems often exist on the college level, then there's absolutely no way I want these problems occurring on the interscholastic level, especially on the junior varsity, freshman, or middle school level. I don't even want a shot clock in my varsity games, I don't need shot clock problems in games that count. I've got other table things to worry about, like, "Why is the table calling me over when they just told me a few seconds ago that we're not in the bonus?".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Thanks for the inside information. As a high school official with only a passing interest in college, or professional, basketball, I just assumed that the "big boys" would have the shot clock down pat, easy peasy lemon squeezy, no problems. If what you're saying is that shot clock problems often exist on the college level, then there's absolutely no way I want these problems occurring on the interscholastic level, especially on the junior varsity, freshman, or middle school level. I don't even want a shot clock in my varsity games, I don't need shot clock problems in games that count. I've got other table things to worry about, like, "Why is the table calling me over when they just told me a few seconds ago that we're not in the bonus?".

College tables are just as horrible as any other level. They pick some dude that had no knowledge of what they are doing and does not care as long as they get their check. The same way it works at the high school level. Now you add one more clock to verify and follow.

And for the record, I just had a D1 official tell me the same basic thing about the tables at that level. There is no care in who is doing these jobs so why do we want to add to our agrivation.

Even though it is not the same sport, the same goes in football games with the play clock. We half the time cannot go a single college game without a few problems with the clock. It is a mess and I have little confidence in the right people doing their job at the table.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

College tables are just as horrible as any other level. They pick some dude that had no knowledge of what they are doing and does not care as long as they get their check. The same way it works at the high school level. Now you add one more clock to verify and follow.

Great, now if it's decided to go to a universal high school shot clock, I'll have something else to lose sleep over. Worse for me, it may take several years to go to the shot clock, and by that time (due to age, and orthopedic problems) I'll probably be doing junior varsity, freshman, and middle school games, where the tables are more likely to be less experienced.

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

College tables are just as horrible as any other level. They pick some dude that had no knowledge of what they are doing and does not care as long as they get their check. The same way it works at the high school level. Now you add one more clock to verify and follow.

And for the record, I just had a D1 official tell me the same basic thing about the tables at that level. There is no care in who is doing these jobs so why do we want to add to our agrivation.

Even though it is not the same sport, the same goes in football games with the play clock. We half the time cannot go a single college game without a few problems with the clock. It is a mess and I have little confidence in the right people doing their job at the table.

Peace

Where do you work that you have problems with the table? In my experience, the table people are competent, even when kids run the table for DC public school JV games. In the DC area, you either have experienced clock operators who reliably run the game/shot clocks, or inexperienced operators who understand after I give them their instructions, and they repeat the instructions back to me. If I give "reset" signals every time a reset is needed in the 1st quarter, for the first few possessions, they catch on soon enough and reset the shot clock correctly without reminders.

If you can have competent tables (either from veterans who do this every year, or from kids that are able/eager to learn), then the shot clock should not be a problem. I have only had one situation last season in a regular season game where the shot clock needed to be corrected, and that was when it was improperly reset. If the shot clock can be implemented without problems, then having that + closely guarded on a held ball only would be the best way to ensure consistency on 5-second calls.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

Where do you work that you have problems with the table?

In every conference and every other school. The problem is that most of the time they are not big issues. But it is not uncommon to once a game to have a clock not start properly or not stop at all. The problem with a shot clock is it affects a possession.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

If I give "reset" signals every time a reset is needed in the 1st quarter, for the first few possessions, they catch on soon enough and reset the shot clock correctly without reminders.

First of all, there is no "reset signal" that anyone uses during play. And you do not look directly at the clock every time play is going on. So you may know the clock should reset, but you do not always see it actually reset for at least a few seconds. The problem with a shot clock is it affects a possession. So if it is off 5 seconds, you might have a violation as a result or not a violation as a result.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

If you can have competent tables (either from veterans who do this every year, or from kids that are able/eager to learn), then the shot clock should not be a problem.

How long have you been officiating? Seriously, because every time I get a table with guys, "Oh, we know what we are doing" are the people that often do not know what they are doing. Or a basic situation becomes a bigger problem.

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

I have only had one situation last season in a regular season game where the shot clock needed to be corrected, and that was when it was improperly reset. If the shot clock can be implemented without problems, then having that + closely guarded on a held ball only would be the best way to ensure consistency on 5-second calls.

I really do not know what any of that has to do with the shot clock.

Peace

[ilyazhito]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

In every conference and every other school. The problem is that most of the time they are not big issues. But it is not uncommon to once a game to have a clock not start properly or not stop at all. The problem with a shot clock is it affects a possession.



First of all, there is no "reset signal" that anyone uses during play. And you do not look directly at the clock every time play is going on. So you may know the clock should reset, but you do not always see it actually reset for at least a few seconds. The problem with a shot clock is it affects a possession. So if it is off 5 seconds, you might have a violation as a result or not a violation as a result.



How long have you been officiating? Seriously, because every time I get a table with guys, "Oh, we know what we are doing" are the people that often do not know what they are doing. Or a basic situation becomes a bigger problem.




I really do not know what any of that has to do with the shot clock.

Peace

No "reset" signal? Then what does the signal on page 164 of the CCA Men's Basketball Officiating Manual where you twirl 1 finger mean (or the same signal on page 190 of the CCA Women's Manual)? I typically do not use the signal if I notice that the shot clock is being reset consistently when it should be, but if I have kids, or people who may not know what to do, I give the finger twirl if it is a confusing situation, for clarification. After the first few possessions, even kids catch on, and I don't have to use the signal again for the rest of the game.

I don't look directly at the shot clock, rather I keep it (and the game clock) in my peripheral vision, and am aware of any issues with it, along with any action in my primary coverage area. If there are any issues with the shot (or game) clock, I can stop play if needed to attend to them.

To avert a table of know-it-alls, I ask the table personnel to tell me about their responsibilities before the game begins, when I introduce myself to them. If they can tell me intelligently what they should do, I can trust them. If not, I correct any mistakes, they learn, and the game runs smoother from there. This method works well for kids at the table, and could also be useful if dealing with a "veteran" table.

One of the major objections provided by shot clock opponents is that it is difficult to find competent help at the table for the game clock, so shot clock is an additional layer of complexity. If it can be proven that table personnel are competent, or can become so with adequate instruction and encouragement, then the "shot clock is impossible because of bad tables" argument is moot.

If the shot clock can be implemented, then NFHS can eliminate the closely guarded on the dribble rule, and become consistent with the other levels of basketball.

Hopefully, this post has cleared up your questions.

P.S. I have 3 years of experience, and my past season was a crash course in HS freshman and JV basketball, how to run a shot clock (DC public and private schools use a 30 second shot clock, with women's college rules for that and the 10 second count (except for DC public school girls, who have no 10-second count, and WCAC boys, who use men's shot clock rules)), and 3-man mechanics (intramural basketball), so the situations that I am talking about with the shot clock come from direct experience.

[Altor]

Originally Posted by ilyazhito

At least 100 active NBA players are foreign (either foreign-born or have foreign nationality). This might be a reason why USA Basketball recommended that US high schools adopt FIBA rules instead of NFHS rules.

And nearly a million high school kids play basketball every year under NFHS rules. Only a few dozen of them will ever see an NBA or WNBA court.