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  #91 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 08:37am
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
All this hypothetical stuff. As a new official, I was worried about the rules and mechanics that were in place and getting them right.
Sure but after three years, including one at the Frosh level of HS (HS!), you had all the answers.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 09:09am
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Sure but after three years, including one at the Frosh level of HS (HS!), you had all the answers.
This is typical these days. And with a shortage of officials, we put people at levels they can't work earlier than they're ready for in some cases.

His level of questioning for that level of experience is a bit baffling. Some officials are NEVER good enough to work even a HS varsity schedule. This guy's already working college in his mind.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 09:25am
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
This is typical these days. And with a shortage of officials, we put people at levels they can't work earlier than they're ready for in some cases.

His level of questioning for that level of experience is a bit baffling. Some officials are NEVER good enough to work even a HS varsity schedule. This guy's already working college in his mind.
It's not baffling. Officials that come from college intramural programs, especially established programs with good leadership, are initially taught at a higher level than Joe Shmoe who wanted to pick up being a referee and started with bitty ball or AAU summers.

It's just a different way of thinking.
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 09:28am
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I agree that the closely guarded count should only apply to 3 feet and holding the ball, because a player who is within 3 feet of another is in arm's length (the length between both arms for most people is around 6 feet, more for people who are taller), and can impede the other player from advancing and scoring (and the player being guarded has no freedom of movement, being constrained by the rule not allowing him to move his pivot foot). The closely guarded count typically ends when the player being guarded gives up possession, or advances past the player guarding him. A player who is dribbling is able to elude his opponent, either by retreating or advancing by him, and thus should not be subject to the closely guarded count. This is apparently the reasoning that FIBA uses to establish its closely guarded count (the distance is 1 meter (slightly more than 3 feet)), and it would make sense if other codes followed it.

How does 6 feet make sense as a closely-guarded distance? From 2 arm lengths away, a player cannot influence another player's position or restrict his movement in the way that a player 1 arm length (3 ft) (or less) away can. To be consistent, NFHS and NCAA (M) should change their closely-guarded definition to FIBA's (NCAAW had adopted the FIBA definition, and will probably re-adopt it if the other levels adopt FIBA's standard).
I like your mindset, but disagree with FIBA. As a defender, it is already nearly impossible to remain in front of an opponent for 5 seconds at the current distance.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 09:39am
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Originally Posted by IncorrectCall View Post
It's not baffling. Officials that come from college intramural programs, especially established programs with good leadership, are initially taught at a higher level than Joe Shmoe who wanted to pick up being a referee and started with bitty ball or AAU summers.

It's just a different way of thinking.
At the end of the day, they have to be able to work.

I hire people from college intramural programs to work varsity games. They are some of my best officials. One thing I will say about all of them is that they are as mechanically sound as anyone and they all seem to have the right attitude about officiating.

I do wonder if they have enough experience should things go south, but I guess there's only one way to get that.
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 09:42am
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
This is typical these days. And with a shortage of officials, we put people at levels they can't work earlier than they're ready for in some cases.

We exacerbated the shortage and corresponding experience gap with the push for three-person. I’ll take that trade-off every day of the week and twice on Sundays. There are copious long-term benefits to this strategy as long as we keep the press on recruiting, retention, and sportsmanship.

Sorry, got off topic again...





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  #97 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 09:45am
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
We exacerbated the shortage and corresponding experience gap with the push for three-person. I’ll take that trade-off every day of the week and twice on Sundays. There are copious long-term benefits to this strategy as long as we keep the press on recruiting, retention, and sportsmanship.

Sorry, got off topic again...
Just to piggy back on this a bit, we may have created a larger initial need for officials with three person. However, we have kept the pool of referees larger with a reduction in injuries.
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 10:00am
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Originally Posted by IncorrectCall View Post
I like your mindset, but disagree with FIBA. As a defender, it is already nearly impossible to remain in front of an opponent for 5 seconds at the current distance.
Do not understand why you think it is extremely difficult for a player:

27.1. Definition
A player who is holding a live ball on the playing court is closely guarded when an
opponent is in an active legal guarding position at a distance of no more than 1 m.
27.2. Rule
A closely guarded player must pass, shoot or dribble the ball within 5 seconds.

So why do you believe its difficult for a defender to be in LGP for 5 seconds at or within 1 meter when all the offense can do is pivot?
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 10:04am
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Originally Posted by Pantherdreams View Post
Do not understand why you think it is extremely difficult for a player:

27.1. Definition
A player who is holding a live ball on the playing court is closely guarded when an
opponent is in an active legal guarding position at a distance of no more than 1 m.
27.2. Rule
A closely guarded player must pass, shoot or dribble the ball within 5 seconds.

So why do you believe its difficult for a defender to be in LGP for 5 seconds at or within 1 meter when all the offense can do is pivot?
Talking about NFHS rule.
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 10:08am
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That's why the NFHS rule should be changed to the FIBA standard, or at least eliminate the closely guarded on the dribble provision.
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 05, 2018, 10:08am
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Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Just to piggy back on this a bit, we may have created a larger initial need for officials with three person. However, we have kept the pool of referees larger with a reduction in injuries.

Great point. It would be interesting if we could quantify that assumption. This would make an excellent thesis study for some sports science masters student.


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  #102 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 10:39am
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
That's why the NFHS rule should be changed to the FIBA standard, or at least eliminate the closely guarded on the dribble provision.
Honestly, who gives a damn about FIBA? Don't most of the world's best players come from this country?

And I would not get rid of anything without a change of the shot clock provision. If there is no shot clock, then keep the rule the same.

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  #103 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 11:02am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Honestly, who gives a damn about FIBA? Don't most of the world's best players come from this country?

And I would not get rid of anything without a change of the shot clock provision. If there is no shot clock, then keep the rule the same.

Peace
At least 100 active NBA players are foreign (either foreign-born or have foreign nationality). This might be a reason why USA Basketball recommended that US high schools adopt FIBA rules instead of NFHS rules. If a body as prominent as USA Basketball recommends that, we should at least pay attention to it, and try to understand the rules it plays by.

I would agree with you on not changing the closely guarded rule until the shot clock changes. In fact, I have made a sample shot clock proposal in the "HS Shot Clock" thread. MD is a shot clock state, so it can't sit on the rules committee and give suggestions, but if you do not come from a shot clock state, maybe you can take a look at the proposal, give me some suggestions on how to make it better, and forward it to your state's rules interpreter.
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 11:17am
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
At least 100 active NBA players are foreign (either foreign-born or have foreign nationality). This might be a reason why USA Basketball recommended that US high schools adopt FIBA rules instead of NFHS rules. If a body as prominent as USA Basketball recommends that, we should at least pay attention to it, and try to understand the rules it plays by.
And not even a third are the players in the NBA, which means that most players in the top league in the world, did not play with any FIBA rules in their pre-NBA years.

Who cares what USA Basketball recommends? The players that do not even play FIBA rules on a regular, dominate every tournament and have done so for years. It is a story when the US does not win the Olympics or the World Championships. This is not FIFA we are talking about here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I would agree with you on not changing the closely guarded rule until the shot clock changes. In fact, I have made a sample shot clock proposal in the "HS Shot Clock" thread. MD is a shot clock state, so it can't sit on the rules committee and give suggestions, but if you do not come from a shot clock state, maybe you can take a look at the proposal, give me some suggestions on how to make it better, and forward it to your state's rules interpreter.
I work shot clock games working college games and there is nothing special about the shot clock. As stated before, many times there are more mess ups with the shot clock than there are times it seems to work. And at the college level, they hire people all the time just to do that. I would not be opposed to a shot clock in principle, but it is the problems and the controversies that will be coming. We have enough of those in high school games with controversy with the officials alone in the games. Do we really want more issues? I know I don't. If they bring it in I would adjust, but that does not mean I am clamoring to have those issues.

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  #105 (permalink)  
Old Fri Apr 06, 2018, 05:07pm
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Did I Assume Wrong ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I work shot clock games working college games and there is nothing special about the shot clock. As stated before, many times there are more mess ups with the shot clock than there are times it seems to work. And at the college level, they hire people all the time just to do that.
Thanks for the inside information. As a high school official with only a passing interest in college, or professional, basketball, I just assumed that the "big boys" would have the shot clock down pat, easy peasy lemon squeezy, no problems. If what you're saying is that shot clock problems often exist on the college level, then there's absolutely no way I want these problems occurring on the interscholastic level, especially on the junior varsity, freshman, or middle school level. I don't even want a shot clock in my varsity games, I don't need shot clock problems in games that count. I've got other table things to worry about, like, "Why is the table calling me over when they just told me a few seconds ago that we're not in the bonus?".
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