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-   -   "Hey Ref, that's five seconds!" (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103740-hey-ref-thats-five-seconds.html)

grunewar Sun Apr 01, 2018 07:44am

"Hey Ref, that's five seconds!"
 
I was wondering why I haven't seen more closely guarded counts in the NCAA tournament, so, I looked it up on-line and found the below explanation. I "assume" it to be correct. If so, this is a PRIME example of why what is watched by fans, helps perpetuate our problems with rules knowledge....

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A five-second closely guarded violation may be called against an offensive player with the ball when that player is guarded closely for five seconds or more and does not pass, shoot, or dribble within that time.

Under NCAA men's rules, to be considered "closely guarded", a defender must be guarding a player who is located in the frontcourt and within six (6) feet of the player. The count applies to a player who is only holding the ball. Prior to the 2015-16 season, the rule included those dribbling the ball as well. This allows for multiple closely guarded counts to occur.

NCAA women's rules require the defender to be within three (3) feet and can occur anywhere on the playing court, but only applies when the offensive player is holding the ball. A count ends whenever the player with the ball gets his head and shoulders past the defender, the defender is no longer within the required distance, the same defender does not continuously closely guard the player in control of the ball, or another opponent is between the defender and the ball.

High school rules mimic men's college basketball's closely guarded rule. A defender must be guarding the player in control of the ball, in the frontcourt, and must be within six feet of the player. A player may be holding or dribbling the ball. If defensive teammates switch, and both are within six feet of the player in control of the ball, the same count is continued.

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Certainly helped me understand the differences better.

AremRed Sun Apr 01, 2018 08:08am

Plus the shot clock kinda makes closely guarded irrelevant.

bob jenkins Sun Apr 01, 2018 08:55am

NCAAW is now six feet and FC only. It's been that way for several years.

Raymond Sun Apr 01, 2018 09:04am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1020148)
NCAAW is now six feet and FC only. It's been that way for several years.

Yep, the men and women have the same rule.

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BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 09:58am

Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by grunewar (Post 1020139)
If so, this is a PRIME example of why what is watched by fans, helps perpetuate our problems with rules knowledge ...

Which is exactly why it's on my list of The Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules (NFHS):

The closely guarded rule is in effect in frontcourt only, when a defender is within six feet of the ball handler. Up to three separate five second counts may occur on the same ball handler: holding, dribbling, and holding. The count continues even if defenders switch. The five second count ends when a dribbler gets his, or her, head, and shoulders, ahead of the defender.

grunewar Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:10am

Thanks for the clarification
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1020148)
NCAAW is now six feet and FC only. It's been that way for several years.

Are you saying the interweb is wrong?

Shocked I tell ya! Shocked I am!

JRutledge Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:11am

You did not look up recent rules I see, because almost none of those rules are the current rules. Men's rules changed last year to get rid of closely guarded requirement when dribbling because the shot clock was reduced. The NCAA Men's Committee felt it was unnecessary for the shot clock. Women's changed their requirement for closely guarded a very long time ago in both the dribble and the distance.

I do not expect fans to know the rules if our officials do not know the rules. Either way, it is common that there are differences amongst levels. The same way it is different in football for example and there are many more rules differences in football, but it does not stop people from thinking they know that an NFL rule is not an NF rule.

Peace

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:22am

Different Rules For Different Genders ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020153)
... if our officials do not know the rules.

Certainly true for officials who work under more than one rule set.

Not true for those of us that only work under one rule set. As a 100% high school official, and not a big college, or NBA, basketball fan, I go out of my way to avoid rule set comparisons. It's enough of a task for me to remember differences in NFHS rules from thirty-seven years ago and today, so I'm not even trying to understand NCAA, and NBA rules, especially different rules for different genders.

In my specific situation, I would prefer to be a master of one trade, and not a jack of all trades.

JRutledge Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:34am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020155)
Certainly true for officials who work under more than one rule set.

Not true for those of us that only work under one rule set. As a 100% high school official, and not a big college, or NBA, basketball fan, I go out of my way to avoid rule set comparisons. It's enough of a task for me to remember differences in NFHS rules from thirty-seven years ago and today, so I'm not even trying to understand NCAA, and NBA rules, especially different rules for different genders.

In my specific situation, I would prefer to be a master of one trade, and not a jack of all trades.

Then officials need to be smart enough to know that the NCAA or NBA might have a different rules set. We seem to do that very well in football and baseball. Half the time in those sports you would have to tell a coach and even sometimes a fan that they were thinking of a pro rule that in no way applied to the NF rule. There are many more NFL rules differences from the NF, but it does not stop an official to remind a coach, "There is no 5-yard contact rule" or "It is not an automatic first down for a personal foul." And it is not that hard to know these things as a football official. I do not understand why this is hard for basketball officials when the rules are almost identical in many ways?

Peace

bob jenkins Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:36am

Even if you only work one level, having a basic understanding of some of the differences at other levels can help you deal with coaches and players (and fans, if appropirate).

Answering a coach's question (or complaint) with "you are right under xxx rules, but in HS, the rule is ...." can go a long way to quell the anger.

JRutledge Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:48am

And what are they going to tell you when you say, "Coach that is an NBA (NCAA/NF) Rule"?

It is not like coaches are real rules experts. They know they are going off of "understanding" not real rules knowledge or study. I had some college coaches during a game this year try to tell me about a clear NBA Rule (I believe they were talking clear path fouls) and when I was adamant about that did not apply to our college game, they shut up for the most part. And I wish I had a dollar every time a slapping of the backboard has a call for the basket to count and I tell them, "This is not Men's college basketball."

Peace

BillyMac Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:54am

Permutations And Changes ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jerkins (Post 1020158)
Even if you only work one level, having a basic understanding of some of the differences at other levels can help you deal with coaches and players (and fans, if appropriate). Answering a coach's question (or complaint) with "you are right under xxx rules, but in HS, the rule is ...." can go a long way to quell the anger.

Agree, but is it necessary to know all the specific permutations and specific changes of the five second rule in both mens and womens NCAA rules that have occurred over the past ten years?

I did had some basic knowledge of these differences, but I did learn something new today from this thread. As a 100% high school official, is it bad that I learned something new about college rules today from an internet forum? Or should I have already known this?

JRutledge Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:44am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020160)
Agree, but is it necessary to know all the specific permutations and specific changes of the five second rule in both mens and womens NCAA rules that have occurred over the past ten years?

No. That is not what anyone said to you. You do not have to know the specific application, but if you know Goaltending or Basket Interference now involves the backboard touching, regardless of if the ball is touched or the assumption that the basket would not go in, is not a hard rule to know does not apply to high school basketball. And if closely guarded does not apply at the college ranks when the ball handler is dribbling, you telling me it is hard to communicate that fact? All the communicating you do on this site you cannot figure out that is not an NF rule?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020160)
I did had some basic knowledge of these differences, but I did learn something new today from this thread. As a 100% high school official, is it bad that I learned something new about college rules today from an internet forum? Or should I have already known this?

No one is asking you to be an expert, but come on now. Again if we do it in football where the differences are much bigger and much more detailed, I think a "Student of the Game" and figure out what we see on TV does not apply to most of our games.

This attitude to me is the problem of why we have a high school crew in football not even realize that a college situation took place happened to them later that year. To me, if you are a student of the game you can learn from many areas what applies on TV might not be different or might be a different application of their rules.

Peace

Raymond Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:03pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 1020160)
Agree, but is it necessary to know all the specific permutations and specific changes of the five second rule in both mens and womens NCAA rules that have occurred over the past ten years?

I did had some basic knowledge of these differences, but I did learn something new today from this thread. As a 100% high school official, is it bad that I learned something new about college rules today from an internet forum? Or should I have already known this?

It's more relevant to know the differences in rules between the different levels of play now, as opposed to knowing what a rule was 35 years ago in a particular ruleset.

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bob jenkins Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1020159)
And what are they going to tell you when you say, "Coach that is an NBA (NCAA/NF) Rule"?

Usually, it's "okay, thanks. I didn't know the rule was different."


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