Kansas HS foul

[bondguy]

From a NFHS mechanics standpoint, how should this be handled?

If the official's first reaction is to give the intentional foul signal, is the official committing himself to an intentional foul and no ejection? (A state championship official once told me this.)

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bondguy

From a NFHS mechanics standpoint, how should this be handled?

If the official's first reaction is to give the intentional foul signal, is the official committing himself to an intentional foul and no ejection? (A state championship official once told me this.)

There is no flagrant foul signal (unlike college). So that signal is appropriate and acceptable. Then if they were to decide it was flagrant, they report it to the table as such, inform the coach (as they would any disqualified player), give them time to sub in the player by rule and then shoot the FTs for the flagrant act. I even think it is acceptable to give the "you're out" signal when reporting the foul after you give the color and number of the player.

But in no way does the signal boxy you in. You do not even have to give the signal at all, but since intentional fouls have more penalities related, you can always upgrade. I would not downgrade if I gave that signal.

Peace

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is no flagrant foul signal (unlike college). So that signal is appropriate and acceptable. Then if they were to decide it was flagrant, they report it to the table as such, inform the coach (as they would any disqualified player), give them time to sub in the player by rule and then shoot the FTs for the flagrant act. I even think it is acceptable to give the "you're out" signal when reporting the foul after you give the color and number of the player.

But in no way does the signal boxy you in. You do not even have to give the signal at all, but since intentional fouls have more penalities related, you can always upgrade. I would not downgrade if I gave that signal.

Peace

I agree with this. We were always taught you can upgrade a foul (personal to intentional, intentional to flagrant) but not to downgrade (i.e., can't put the toothpaste back in the tube once you call a "T").

[deecee]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I agree with this. We were always taught you can upgrade a foul (personal to intentional, intentional to flagrant) but not to downgrade (i.e., can't put the toothpaste back in the tube once you call a "T").

Yes you can. I once called a T on a coach only to realize it was the a$$hat parent couple rows behind him that sounds just like him. I rescinded that pretty quickly.

As for this call...wow.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by deecee

Yes you can. I once called a T on a coach only to realize it was the a$$hat parent couple rows behind him that sounds just like him. I rescinded that pretty quickly.

As for this call...wow.

Agree. Every once in a while, you just have to swallow your pride and do the right thing. Similar situation this year....star player gets fouled and is injured by the endline. I pause, make sure the scene is safe, see coaches starting to come out to attend to the player, and I leave to report. Once done, I turn around and an adult attending to the player decides he's going to let everyone in the gym know that it's my fault the player got injured. T to the assistant coach. Except it turned out it wasn't an assistant coach. It was the player's father who had come down from the stands while I was reporting the common foul. I felt like poop. When the dust settled, I got both coaches together and told them I was rescinding the T and why. The offended coach wasn't happy but asked that the parent at least be asked to leave the gym for his outburst. I couldn't really object to that reasoning, so I had game management make him leave. I don't think the game manager was all that happy with how it played out. Not my best look ever, but I feel like we didn't make a crappy situation worse.

Back to the OP situation. Let's just say that I can't recall another time when we haven't had a single dissenting opinion to a flagrant foul call or no-call. The only thing more sinister than the foul was the lack of courage to DQ the fouler.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Back to the OP situation. Let's just say that I can't recall another time when we haven't had a single dissenting opinion to a flagrant foul call or no-call. The only thing more sinister than the foul was the lack of courage to DQ the fouler.

I hate attributing any referee failure to lack of courage from just a clip. And I always think it more useful to look at these as "how do I not end up there" than as "boy, he screwed up." But, boy, I'd love to know what they saw and what were thinking on that play to get anything other than a DQ. The only think I can think is that the R who made the call thought it was less forceful, and kept his eyes on the pusher rather than the push-ee. (Of course, at speed, it doesn't take much force on that push in the back to send someone flying.) But that should have been addressed in a conference of the officials.
I also can't tell his angle at the moment of contact. It's possible he didn't see the hands and just thought it was a body bump. Or, perhaps, as someone suggested earlier, he thought once he signaled intentional he couldn't upgrade it--we've all had brain farts that aren't lack of courage. But, wow, what a miss.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Agree. Every once in a while, you just have to swallow your pride and do the right thing. Similar situation this year....star player gets fouled and is injured by the endline. I pause, make sure the scene is safe, see coaches starting to come out to attend to the player, and I leave to report. Once done, I turn around and an adult attending to the player decides he's going to let everyone in the gym know that it's my fault the player got injured. T to the assistant coach. Except it turned out it wasn't an assistant coach. It was the player's father who had come down from the stands while I was reporting the common foul. I felt like poop. When the dust settled, I got both coaches together and told them I was rescinding the T and why. The offended coach wasn't happy but asked that the parent at least be asked to leave the gym for his outburst. I couldn't really object to that reasoning, so I had game management make him leave. I don't think the game manager was all that happy with how it played out. Not my best look ever, but I feel like we didn't make a crappy situation worse.

Team technical foul for the unsporting behavior of the team parent. The parent is also removed from the gym.

[Multiple Sports]

I will pass on the team technical but I do agree with having the parent escorted out of the gym....

[bucky]

Originally Posted by deecee

Yes you can. I once called a T on a coach only to realize it was the a$$hat parent couple rows behind him that sounds just like him. I rescinded that pretty quickly.

As for this call...wow.

I do not feel rescinding is the same as downgrading.

[justacoach]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ad3fc6cdba8c

Loved this line in the article: "John Blazek, who selects referees for the NCAA tournament, told the station that Rempe should have been ejected."

and this comment: "Mr. Blazek, who is in charge of assigning refs to the NCAA big dance, said the kid would have been tossed due to putting a player’s well being in jeopardy if it were a college game. Well then, Mr. Blazek, in 4 years why has the dirtiest player in the game (Grayson Allen) never been tossed? Please explain that one to us all."

[bondguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is no flagrant foul signal (unlike college). So that signal is appropriate and acceptable. Then if they were to decide it was flagrant, they report it to the table as such, inform the coach (as they would any disqualified player), give them time to sub in the player by rule and then shoot the FTs for the flagrant act. I even think it is acceptable to give the "you're out" signal when reporting the foul after you give the color and number of the player.

But in no way does the signal boxy you in. You do not even have to give the signal at all, but since intentional fouls have more penalities related, you can always upgrade. I would not downgrade if I gave that signal.

Peace

Thank you. That helps a lot.

[TopicalTropical]

I was talking to a new ref recently about how he didn't call an easy intentional foul in the game, I ended up calling it. No issue, the coach said it was the right call. I also did the same thing my first year. Sometimes things happen that are really unexpected and you just aren't mentally ready to make the right call. Now it is easier for me and just becomes sort of automatic. Not sure what happened here and if that is the case. Also, in this situation I would want the refs to gather and talk it over. For intentional fouls or ejection type calls I would have no issue with the other refs trying to get the call upgraded. Yeah, maybe he didn't think the push was too hard and the player's momentum carried him. But if there are three refs on the court and all clearly got a good look at a foul from behind then logically you think they would have ejected the player.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by TopicalTropical

Sometimes things happen that are really unexpected and you just aren't mentally ready to make the right call ... For intentional fouls or ejection type calls I would have no issue with the other refs trying to get the call upgraded. Yeah, maybe he didn't think the push was too hard and the player's momentum carried him.

Good post. Unexpected things do happen occasionally, and maybe we're not mentally ready to properly rule on such plays. It's a lot easier for us to do our jobs when we have great partners.