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-   -   Kansas HS foul (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/103642-kansas-hs-foul.html)

Rich Sat Mar 10, 2018 03:58pm

Kansas HS foul
 
This is one of the worst fouls I've ever seen:

https://247sports.com/Bolt/Watch-Kan...ion--116060825

Obviously, this was *not* called a flagrant foul as the player wasn't ejected and Kansas plays NFHS rules.

If this isn't a flagrant personal foul, I'm not sure what is.

Diesel Sat Mar 10, 2018 04:00pm

This isn’t even one of those “I don’t want to eject a player because it’s the playoffs” kind of calls. How can a 2 hand shove to the back at full speed not be flagrant?

Randa16 Sat Mar 10, 2018 06:33pm

Absolutely under no circumstance does that kid stay in the game if I am the ref. I don’t care if it is a regular season game or the NBA finals he is gone. Those refs should be ashamed and suspended.

#76 Sat Mar 10, 2018 06:41pm

Doesn't get more flagrant than that without weapons involved.

Raymond Sat Mar 10, 2018 06:49pm

And we have Jayhawk fans who complain about college officiating?

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JRutledge Sat Mar 10, 2018 07:50pm

I don't know why he was allowed to continue in the game.

Oh well.

Peace

BryanV21 Sat Mar 10, 2018 08:40pm

He gone!

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bucky Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:11pm

This is one of those sports plays that is severe enough to bring a lawsuit. :eek:

I would have ejected before offensive player hit the stanchion.

ilyazhito Sun Mar 11, 2018 08:45am

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanV21 (Post 1018650)
He gone!

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Indeed, no way am I not ejecting him after this. In NCAA basketball (presumably all divisions have video replay for the national tournament, correct me if I am wrong), if the official did not call this a Flagrant 2, instant replay would have upgraded the foul to a Flagrant 2, leading to the player being disqualified. I would have ejected him before it went to replay in an NCAA game. In basketball under NFHS rules, I would have ejected him outright. This foul is an absolute disgrace.

Kelvin green Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:07pm

Plain and simple ejection. Then as soon as the defender’s coach opened his mouth and says anything about the call, he picks up his first.....

bondguy Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:08am

From a NFHS mechanics standpoint, how should this be handled?

If the official's first reaction is to give the intentional foul signal, is the official committing himself to an intentional foul and no ejection? (A state championship official once told me this.)

JRutledge Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:18am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bondguy (Post 1018741)
From a NFHS mechanics standpoint, how should this be handled?

If the official's first reaction is to give the intentional foul signal, is the official committing himself to an intentional foul and no ejection? (A state championship official once told me this.)

There is no flagrant foul signal (unlike college). So that signal is appropriate and acceptable. Then if they were to decide it was flagrant, they report it to the table as such, inform the coach (as they would any disqualified player), give them time to sub in the player by rule and then shoot the FTs for the flagrant act. I even think it is acceptable to give the "you're out" signal when reporting the foul after you give the color and number of the player.

But in no way does the signal boxy you in. You do not even have to give the signal at all, but since intentional fouls have more penalities related, you can always upgrade. I would not downgrade if I gave that signal.

Peace

Rufus Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:43am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 1018742)
There is no flagrant foul signal (unlike college). So that signal is appropriate and acceptable. Then if they were to decide it was flagrant, they report it to the table as such, inform the coach (as they would any disqualified player), give them time to sub in the player by rule and then shoot the FTs for the flagrant act. I even think it is acceptable to give the "you're out" signal when reporting the foul after you give the color and number of the player.

But in no way does the signal boxy you in. You do not even have to give the signal at all, but since intentional fouls have more penalities related, you can always upgrade. I would not downgrade if I gave that signal.

Peace

I agree with this. We were always taught you can upgrade a foul (personal to intentional, intentional to flagrant) but not to downgrade (i.e., can't put the toothpaste back in the tube once you call a "T").

deecee Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:22pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rufus (Post 1018743)
I agree with this. We were always taught you can upgrade a foul (personal to intentional, intentional to flagrant) but not to downgrade (i.e., can't put the toothpaste back in the tube once you call a "T").

Yes you can. I once called a T on a coach only to realize it was the a$$hat parent couple rows behind him that sounds just like him. I rescinded that pretty quickly.

As for this call...wow.

crosscountry55 Mon Mar 12, 2018 02:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 1018747)
Yes you can. I once called a T on a coach only to realize it was the a$$hat parent couple rows behind him that sounds just like him. I rescinded that pretty quickly.

As for this call...wow.

Agree. Every once in a while, you just have to swallow your pride and do the right thing. Similar situation this year....star player gets fouled and is injured by the endline. I pause, make sure the scene is safe, see coaches starting to come out to attend to the player, and I leave to report. Once done, I turn around and an adult attending to the player decides he's going to let everyone in the gym know that it's my fault the player got injured. T to the assistant coach. Except it turned out it wasn't an assistant coach. It was the player's father who had come down from the stands while I was reporting the common foul. I felt like poop. When the dust settled, I got both coaches together and told them I was rescinding the T and why. The offended coach wasn't happy but asked that the parent at least be asked to leave the gym for his outburst. I couldn't really object to that reasoning, so I had game management make him leave. I don't think the game manager was all that happy with how it played out. Not my best look ever, but I feel like we didn't make a crappy situation worse.

Back to the OP situation. Let's just say that I can't recall another time when we haven't had a single dissenting opinion to a flagrant foul call or no-call. The only thing more sinister than the foul was the lack of courage to DQ the fouler.


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