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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 02:58pm
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Double whistle - How should this be handled?



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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 03:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post


Peace

Jeff:

I have a Charge. but it is the C's call all of the way. I am not sure why the L was even looking across the Lane in the first place.

The L was slow getting to the End Line and had a competitive match right on the End Line right in front of him on his side of the FT Lane.

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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 04:49pm
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Two lines

A lead cannot call across both lane lines like that, it's the C's call
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 05:19pm
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Originally Posted by Matt S. View Post
A lead cannot call across both lane lines like that, it's the C's call
It was almost also across the 3 point line he was so far off the lane.
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 05:24pm
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He needs to hustle to get to the baseline earlier. After that, the centre should have first crack.
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 05:59pm
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Secondary defender, Lead's play. Lead needs to be at closedown if not one step into the paint.
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 06:15pm
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My favorite part is that the L immediately signals the player control foul, then tells his partner to take it.
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 06:27pm
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Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Secondary defender, Lead's play. Lead needs to be at closedown if not one step into the paint.

1) As I stated before not only was the L late in getting to the End Line he had a competitive match-up right in front of him on his side of the FT Lane. That means this is the C's play all the way to the Basket.

2) This is a game being played under NFHS Rules, therefore they is no such thing as a "secondary defender". The NBC (divided into the NFHS and NCAA Men's) Rules Committee wrote the Guarding Rule upon the principal that a Player should expect to be Guarded from the instant he/she gains Control of the Ball until he/she no longer has Control of the Ball. That means there is no such thing as a "secondary defender" because the Ball Handler must expect to be Guarded at all times.

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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 11:02pm
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OP contained 2 questions: How should it be handled and whose call is it?

I agree with Arem. Secondary defender came to help. C had the primary defender and can't really watch two defenders simultaneously with great accuracy. IMO, it is L's call.

I, with great respect, disagree with Mark T. as there still can be a "secondary" defender. It may not fit certain definitions of associations but for purely descriptive purposes, it works. Also, I do not feel that the L had a "competitive matchup" as they were doing nothing to warrant L's attention.

Now, everyone has already described how it should have been handled. IMO, L should have been ball side. When the ball crossed half-court, he should have been in a close-down position. When the ball went to the wing, he should have then initiated a rotation. Again, just my opinion.
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 11:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
OP contained 2 questions: How should it be handled and whose call is it?

I agree with Arem. Secondary defender came to help. C had the primary defender and can't really watch two defenders simultaneously with great accuracy. IMO, it is L's call.

I, with great respect, disagree with Mark T. as there still can be a "secondary" defender. It may not fit certain definitions of associations but for purely descriptive purposes, it works. Also, I do not feel that the L had a "competitive matchup" as they were doing nothing to warrant L's attention.

Now, everyone has already described how it should have been handled. IMO, L should have been ball side. When the ball crossed half-court, he should have been in a close-down position. When the ball went to the wing, he should have then initiated a rotation. Again, just my opinion.
Well said bucky. I disagree about the rotation, they had just gotten in the frontcourt from transition and it would have been a very quick rotation. I'm not even sure the Lead would have made it all the way across before the play happens. Plus an immediate drive from the wing should freeze the Lead from coming across. At minimum the Lead should be at close down and refereeing the secondary defender because Slot still has to cover the primary defender who is now behind the offensive player.
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Old Sat Mar 10, 2018, 11:21pm
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If we changed “secondary” to “help” is Mark going to try and argue that there are no help defenders?

A lot of terms that aren’t in the rules are used in officiating speak. Are you just now realizing and taking issue with that?

By the way, “secondary defender” is, in fact, a term used in the NFHS Mechanics Manual. So clearly the Fed has no issue with using the term to discuss plays.
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Old Sun Mar 11, 2018, 04:16am
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I think this is the C's play all the way. He not only saw the play, it was on the other side of the lane. The Lead is guessing IMO because he is looking through the back of defender at best and any call he could not see the space between the defender.

I have also worked with the Center official many times over the years. I can tell he was not happy with the Lead on that play by his body language and facial expression.

And I never get why people think the Center cannot see a secondary defender. He beat the first guy, you transition to the next play.

The Lead IMO was not hustling to get to the end line in the first place and then did not "post" and made a call without giving the Center any chance to make his own call.

But it is a good learning tool.

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Old Sun Mar 11, 2018, 07:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The Lead IMO was not hustling to get to the end line in the first place and then did not "post" and made a call without giving the Center any chance to make his own call.

This. Key takeaway from the discussion. We can disagree on who had the help/secondary defender and therefore who had primary responsibility for the call. But mechanics and hustle sucked on this play, costing the ultimate decision all of its believability.

If L is in position, pinches and posts, we’re probably not even having this discussion right now.

By the way....a third place game? That’s so antiquated and lame.



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Old Sun Mar 11, 2018, 11:34am
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post

By the way....a third place game? That’s so antiquated and lame.
They give a third and fourth place trophy. So you have to earn your spot. All teams get 2 games guaranteed for the weekend. You either play in the title game or the 3rd place game.

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Old Sun Mar 11, 2018, 12:31pm
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
This. Key takeaway from the discussion. We can disagree on who had the help/secondary defender and therefore who had primary responsibility for the call. But mechanics and hustle sucked on this play, costing the ultimate decision all of its believability.

If L is in position, pinches and posts, we’re probably not even having this discussion right now.

By the way....a third place game? That’s so antiquated and lame.



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I agree with those saying this is a secondary defender and, as a result, is the L's call. He should have closed down to be in better position, but it was his defender to call. The defender came from within the lane and only stepped out at the last moment.

3rd place game? Oregon has them and even a 4th place game. They award 1st to 6th places.
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