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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 25, 2018, 04:01pm
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What's more, there are many coaches in my area who have been at their schools 20, 30 years or longer. They have a very "mmmm fresh meat" mentality when they see an official they haven't seen very often, regardless of experience. I'm never going to give a coach an indication that he can take advantage of me just because I'm working with two other guys he's been seeing for years.

Several of them also simply believe that we're out there to screw them over every single time and they treat us as such. I'm not saying I go out there with a vendetta, but as officials it's our responsibility to know who these problem coaches are and nip behavior like that in the bud so we can do our jobs. We've even had a couple coaches who would openly trash officiating on social media following losses.

So yeah, sometimes "being the bigger person" just isn't the most practical solution. I don't do this "for the kids", I don't do this for the coaches, I don't even do this for the money. I do it cause I love the game more than anything, and if I see behavior that's disrespectful to the game (and shouting "TRAVEL" from the bench qualifies) I'll address it. Really that simple.

Last edited by RedAndWhiteRef; Thu Jan 25, 2018 at 04:13pm.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 25, 2018, 11:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt S. View Post
I couldn't disagree with this statement more. What you - and several others - fail to recognize is that we are in the customer service business. I am not suggesting that we bend over and let coaches/players verbally abuse us, but it's our interpersonal skills that get us ahead.

Be the bigger person. DE-escalate the situation. Use the tools at your disposal (informal and formal warnings). If it's personal, it's a T. If it's public, it's a T.

But 'being a dick' is not going to get you any respect. From coaches...or from partners.
This is all well and good until you run into a coach with whom being a dick right back at him is the only way to get your point across.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rookie View Post
Last night had a game with two coaches that have reputations as being very chatty..three minutes into the game, my partner and I called both coaches to the table and gave each of them a book warning and they were fine the rest of the game.

Thoughts on giving book warnings as early as possible or be patient?
What's the point of calling them to the table? You're not explaining a complicated ruling, you're giving a warning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee View Post
Settle down!

Giving warnings for coaches yelling "travel"? Wow!!!!!!!

I don't know any fellow officials that gain respect by being a dick. I would guess they are laughing at you and your over the top authority behind your back. I don't know how your assignor feels, but they might start to get tired of your act as well. Maybe you have a shortage of officials in your area and they are forced to hire you and put up with you being a dick?
We get it, you don't call technical fouls and think you are the gift from the game management gods.

I'd rather work with a partner who I know will handle business than someone like you who (I can only assume based on your posting history) will let the coaches bitch and moan until someone else cleans up your mess for you.

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Originally Posted by SD Referee View Post
In my area, being a "dick" will get you fewer and fewer games and LESS respect from everybody.
Apparently so will calling technical fouls, something you haven't done in what, 10 years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
"What you - and several others - fail to recognize is that we are in the customer service business."

Nope. I am not in the customer service business, nor is the "customer" always right. I am a referee, the neutral third party in the triangle of interscholastic competition.
A-freaking-men. If I was in this business (and yes, refereeing is partially a business) to please people, I would never whack coaches, just like SD Referee (and maybe Matt S.?).

Coaches (along with ADs and other administrators and fans) are not my customers.

This is not a customer service business. Do your job, penalize unsporting behavior, and stop making every excuse in the book for not doing so.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 11:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
This is all well and good until you run into a coach with whom being a dick right back at him is the only way to get your point across.


What's the point of calling them to the table? You're not explaining a complicated ruling, you're giving a warning.

We get it, you don't call technical fouls and think you are the gift from the game management gods.

I'd rather work with a partner who I know will handle business than someone like you who (I can only assume based on your posting history) will let the coaches bitch and moan until someone else cleans up your mess for you.


Apparently so will calling technical fouls, something you haven't done in what, 10 years?


A-freaking-men. If I was in this business (and yes, refereeing is partially a business) to please people, I would never whack coaches, just like SD Referee (and maybe Matt S.?).

Coaches (along with ADs and other administrators and fans) are not my customers.

This is not a customer service business. Do your job, penalize unsporting behavior, and stop making every excuse in the book for not doing so.
There is a difference in taking care of business and being a dick. The poster self described himself as such and was proud of it. To each his own.

As I said before, it sounds like you guys deal with way more problems in your areas of the world. Maybe it's better players with more on the line, thus getting the coaches more fired up. Maybe it's coaches that think they are better than they are. Maybe it's............I don't know what.

I have a style that has worked for me and I have received plenty of big games and postseason work. Apparently what I am doing is perfect for my area of the world. To T or not to T does not define your ability as a referee. I am far from a god of management, but what I do works in my area of the world. It's a style that far more accomplished officials have used as well. Maybe my first coach T is coming someday. Maybe not. I couldn't care less. SOME of you care far more about it than I do. You use it to measure the ability and greatness of an official. I couldn't care less what you think of that.

Sounds like you guys have to hand out Ts like they are candy in your areas. If that's what it takes, then so be it. That's NOT what it takes in my area of the world.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 11:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD Referee View Post
There is a difference in taking care of business and being a dick. The poster self described himself as such and was proud of it. To each his own.

As I said before, it sounds like you guys deal with way more problems in your areas of the world. Maybe it's better players with more on the line, thus getting the coaches more fired up. Maybe it's coaches that think they are better than they are. Maybe it's............I don't know what.

I have a style that has worked for me and I have received plenty of big games and postseason work. Apparently what I am doing is perfect for my area of the world. To T or not to T does not define your ability as a referee. I am far from a god of management, but what I do works in my area of the world. It's a style that far more accomplished officials have used as well. Maybe my first coach T is coming someday. Maybe not. I couldn't care less. SOME of you care far more about it than I do. You use it to measure the ability and greatness of an official. I couldn't care less what you think of that.

Sounds like you guys have to hand out Ts like they are candy in your areas. If that's what it takes, then so be it. That's NOT what it takes in my area of the world.
We are all different people. If he wants to describe himself as being a dick, not only is that his right, it might work for the people that he is around. I know I work games in multiple cultural situations (suburbs, rural areas, and urban areas) and sometimes you have to be a dick or you will get run over. And I mean run over as you will be dealing with coaches and players on every play if you do not essentially "put them in their place." They will constantly complain until they realize that is not what you will accept on every play. And funny when you do this, they stop complaining. And they might walk away thinking you are a dick, but guess what, I got what I wanted to accomplish. I am sure that style works for me and him the same.

To me your position is just like when people say, "We do this for the kids" and a roll my eyes out of my head when I hear that mess.

Peace
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:01pm
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Thanks everybody for all the great replies. I have learned so much from this group over the years.

I think it's rare that I've used a technical foul and it has been effective the way that I wanted it to be. But it did happen last week in the boys varsity game that I called the T on the head coach. He went from constantly criticizing the officiating and being down by 12 points to coaching and being up by 11 points at the buzzer.

I coached for 11 years and I got my share of technical fouls for unsportsmanlike behavior. Well deserved. So I understand where they are coming from. And now after 18 years and learning effective use of the technical foul. sometimes it can shape the game you're in and sometimes you just need to use it so that you can get your game completed.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:12pm
LRZ LRZ is online now
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I don't care what coaches think of me. I do care when their conduct interferes with the flow of the game and with my ability to do my job.

Usually, when I issue a coach a T or official warning, he/she calms down and coaches--not always, but most of the time--and I comment to my partners how much easier it is when coaches leave us alone to referee.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedAndWhiteRef View Post
On the drive there I told myself I wasn't driving an hour each way to take shit from someone half my height and twice my age. The first toe she put out of line, she got warned.
If you continue to carry biases such as these, it will not serve you well.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:42pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
We are all different people. If he wants to describe himself as being a dick, not only is that his right, it might work for the people that he is around. I know I work games in multiple cultural situations (suburbs, rural areas, and urban areas) and sometimes you have to be a dick or you will get run over. And I mean run over as you will be dealing with coaches and players on every play if you do not essentially "put them in their place." They will constantly complain until they realize that is not what you will accept on every play. And funny when you do this, they stop complaining. And they might walk away thinking you are a dick, but guess what, I got what I wanted to accomplish. I am sure that style works for me and him the same.

To me your position is just like when people say, "We do this for the kids" and a roll my eyes out of my head when I hear that mess.

Peace
You are wise. That is why I said to each his own.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 02:34pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
"What you - and several others - fail to recognize is that we are in the customer service business."

Nope. I am not in the customer service business, nor is the "customer" always right. I am a referee, the neutral third party in the triangle of interscholastic competition.
Damn straight. I'm pretty sure we all have/have had day jobs that involve customer interaction which require eating crow from time to time. This job isn't one of them. Coach wants to scream at me because he's down 30-points? He can do it outside the gym.

Now, as another young varsity referee (people think I'm 18, daily) I understand exactly what that guy is saying. We draw the ire of every coach so they can get a call or mess with our heads. And you have to show a little backbone or else that's all you get night after night; nothing but BS and adults acting as if they're 3 year olds. I might not agree with "be a dick", but it's better than just pretending everything is alright.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 02:38pm
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I expect to go to work call my game and go home. I don't expect to go to work and get yelled at the entire time from some guy or girl that has not ever read a rules manual. I have no problem talking to a coach about a play and I always give them a warning before they get the T but it is ridiculous to expect me to deal with it and it is one of the main reasons we are losing referees at a rapid pace.

I will say that female coaches are far worse then men btw. It has nothing to do with me not respecting women or any BS like that. They just seem to be more vocal and nit pick.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Fri Jan 26, 2018, 04:28pm
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I had a bench warning 20 seconds into my game last Saturday. First call of the game and the coach was yelling at my partner from the other end of the floor. All was fine after that.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 01:48pm
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I woke up this year before the season started and said to myself "I am sick of having to tread adults like children and not having enough colleagues that address crappy behavior" so I quit. After 15 years, not having to schlep out to a gym in winter to deal with crap attitudes, and I thought I would miss it, but haven't given it a second thought.

Behavior changes if it is addressed consistently all the time. If it's not then it doesn't change.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 02:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randa16 View Post
...

I will say that female coaches are far worse then men btw. It has nothing to do with me not respecting women or any BS like that. They just seem to be more vocal and nit pick.
I only do at most 1-2 GV games a year nowadays, but that was my observation also when I used to regularly work girls games. I'm a big guy (6' 5"/260) and I rarely have male coaches who will try to deal with me in a hostile or combative manner. I'm guessing in a female coach's eyes, I'm no more physically imposing than the men they've had to deal with all their lives.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 29, 2018, 03:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
If you continue to carry biases such as these, it will not serve you well.
Part of my pregame discussions always include what to expect with regard to the coaches' behavior and how we are going to deal with it. Coaches who repeatedly act like jackasses aren't going to get any benefit of the doubt from me.
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