Defender trying to take a charge starting to fall before contact

[Smitty]

But verticality with respect to a block/charge play is really irrelevant in that it would only come into play if the player falling back fell into someone else, fouling the other player. The player he is falling back from is also not vertical and so what difference does verticality make here?

[SNIPERBBB]

If the dribbler cant avoid a player falling away from him/her, he/she really deserves the PC call.

[bondguy]

Play: A1 begins a drive to the basket. B2 steps into A1's path, has two feet on the court while facing A1, and just before A1 reaches B2, B2 starts to fall backward. As B2 is falling backward but has not yet fallen all the way to the court, A1 dribbles through B2's torso, which knocks B2 the rest of the way to the court. Since B2 was not completely upright when the contact occurred, who shall be assessed with the foul?

Ruling: When B2 had two feet on the court and was facing A1, B2 established legal guarding position on A1. After establishing legal guarding position, there is no provision that requires a defender to remain completely upright when the offensive player initiates the contact with the defender. Although it may be easier and would be more convincing to rule a player-control foul on Al had B2 remained completely upright when the contact occurred, a player-control foul shall still be assessed to A1 for charging into legal defender B2.
Rule: 4-23-2,4-23-3,10-7-7, & 10-7-9

[Pantherdreams]

Players may protect themselves and may move backwards and mainting lgp. How they protect themselves and what they move backwards at what time are up to them. We just enforce the rules.

In a era where contact sports, concussions, child health and well being are under ever increased scrutiny if a kid is falling before contact or going to ground to absorb contact in a controlled fall I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and just call the PC.

In your scenario the PC is clearly happening and player is going to get trucked so I'm fine with it. If player is falling and offense manages to stop short or in a way where the contact wouldn't have required them being struck hard/knocked back/down I would just have a no call and give them the universal get up hand gesture.

They are allowed to protect themselves.

They are allowed to move backwards.

Penalizing this in anyway (beyond a no call) IMO is encouraging players to put themselves unnecessarily in harms way beyond the intent of the rule. Last thing I want is offense going harder and out of control because players who won't risk brain damage or physical injury can't get into LGP.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Players may protect themselves and may move backwards and mainting lgp. How they protect themselves and what they move backwards at what time are up to them. We just enforce the rules.

In a era where contact sports, concussions, child health and well being are under ever increased scrutiny if a kid is falling before contact or going to ground to absorb contact in a controlled fall I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and just call the PC.

In your scenario the PC is clearly happening and player is going to get trucked so I'm fine with it. If player is falling and offense manages to stop short or in a way where the contact wouldn't have required them being struck hard/knocked back/down I would just have a no call and give them the universal get up hand gesture.

They are allowed to protect themselves.

They are allowed to move backwards.

Penalizing this in anyway (beyond a no call) IMO is encouraging players to put themselves unnecessarily in harms way beyond the intent of the rule. Last thing I want is offense going harder and out of control because players who won't risk brain damage or physical injury can't get into LGP.

Good point. A tech in this situation, as I mentioned, is more than likely wrong.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[SC Official]

FWIW, whenever a defender is halfway to the ground before he gets touched, it’s almost always ruled a block in the games I watch on TV. That seems to be the expectation in the college game. And I’m fine with that.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by SC Official

FWIW, whenever a defender is halfway to the ground before he gets touched, it’s almost always ruled a block in the games I watch on TV. That seems to be the expectation in the college game. And I’m fine with that.

That's because college coaches don't like defenders falling down for no reason and causing offensive players to fall over them.

From my experiences it is pretty much standard practice to call blocks in order to clean that up.

[Player989random]

I'd have to see it in person, because my general rule is that if they are noticeably falling down before contact, it's a block if not a no-call. Otherwise, it's PC.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Player989random

I'd have to see it in person, because my general rule is that if they are noticeably falling down before contact, it's a block if not a no-call. Otherwise, it's PC.

Calling a block on a player not responsible for contact, while maintains lgp, who is attempting to protect him/herself: a) is not supported by rule b) expects players to place your preferred behaviour over their perceived personal safety c) punishes a player who does nothing wrong d) perpetuates stereotypes about fakeing/being soft that are not true and can lead to more reckless physical play.

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by bondguy

Play: A1 begins a drive to the basket. B2 steps into A1's path, has two feet on the court while facing A1, and just before A1 reaches B2, B2 starts to fall backward. As B2 is falling backward but has not yet fallen all the way to the court, A1 dribbles through B2's torso, which knocks B2 the rest of the way to the court. Since B2 was not completely upright when the contact occurred, who shall be assessed with the foul?

Ruling: When B2 had two feet on the court and was facing A1, B2 established legal guarding position on A1. After establishing legal guarding position, there is no provision that requires a defender to remain completely upright when the offensive player initiates the contact with the defender. Although it may be easier and would be more convincing to rule a player-control foul on Al had B2 remained completely upright when the contact occurred, a player-control foul shall still be assessed to A1 for charging into legal defender B2.
Rule: 4-23-2,4-23-3,10-7-7, & 10-7-9

Hey BondGuy, I'm intrigued with the interpretation you cited. I'm trying to track the source of that down. Where did you get that from?

[bondguy]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Hey BondGuy, I'm intrigued with the interpretation you cited. I'm trying to track the source of that down. Where did you get that from?

It was sent out last season by one of our local officials' associations in St. Louis. I will see if I can track down the ultimate source.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by bondguy

It was sent out last season by one of our local officials' associations in St. Louis. I will see if I can track down the ultimate source.

If you do a search of this forum, the situation of this play was posted here in January of this year...

[hamnegger]

My son is a small high school player. He easily led his team in taking charges but was only about 50-50 on blocks/charges. Some he never established legal position but others were bc he fell back a bit bc he weighed 115lbs last year. The one time he stood still and took the entire shot he was knocked to the floor hit his head and blacked out. So just something to consider when you guys think kid has to "man up" to take a charge.

[JRutledge]

I find reasons to call charges, not the other way around. Most of the time they are trying to take a charge, I give it to them unless there is some reason they clearly are not there. But I default to the defender if I am going guess and most of the time I see the play anyway. Makes the game so much better. So slightly falling is not something I worry about as the rules allow for them to duck and brace for contact.

Peace

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by hamnegger

My son is a small high school player. He easily led his team in taking charges but was only about 50-50 on blocks/charges. Some he never established legal position but others were bc he fell back a bit bc he weighed 115lbs last year. The one time he stood still and took the entire shot he was knocked to the floor hit his head and blacked out. So just something to consider when you guys think kid has to "man up" to take a charge.

When a player takes the solid contact he has a better chance of bouncing off.. landing on bottom..with head off of the floor. The player who starts falling early pretty much is guaranteeing that the other player will land on top of him. good chance head bounces a few times on court. taking it the proper way is much safer than starting to fall to soon.