Player starting to fall in anticipation of charge

[drofficial]

I've heard numerous partners say this type of thing regarding a block/charge situation: If a player is starting to fall/lean back before contact is made, I call that a block."

How does one defend this statement by rule?

If the defender has established legal guarding position and then leans back, starts to fall before contact (into the torso) is made by the offensive player, shouldn't this still be a charge?

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by drofficial

I've heard numerous partners say this type of thing regarding a block/charge situation: If a player is starting to fall/lean back before contact is made, I call that a block."

How does one defend this statement by rule?

If the defender has established legal guarding position and then leans back, starts to fall before contact (into the torso) is made by the offensive player, shouldn't this still be a charge?

It could also be an unsporting T.

[JohnDorian37]

Originally Posted by drofficial

I've heard numerous partners say this type of thing regarding a block/charge situation: If a player is starting to fall/lean back before contact is made, I call that a block."

How does one defend this statement by rule?

If the defender has established legal guarding position and then leans back, starts to fall before contact (into the torso) is made by the offensive player, shouldn't this still be a charge?

At some point he's no longer vertical and then it is certainly a block.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JohnDorian37

At some point he's no longer vertical and then it is certainly a block.

Unless you are vertical towards the opponent, then that is not illegal. A player can always absorb or brace themselves for contact.

Peace

[Welpe]

4-23-3-e

Art 3:

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:

e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

JohnDorian:

How in the world would falling away from the A player violate the principle of verticality?

[GoodwillRef]

Turn or Duck...where does it say falling is still legal?

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by JohnDorian37

At some point he's no longer vertical and then it is certainly a block.

4-23-3-c

The guard may move laterrally or obliquely (to include backwards) to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

It could also be an unsporting T.

Rules reference, please?

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by JohnDorian37

At some point he's no longer vertical and then it is certainly a block.

Help a brotha out...Rules reference, please?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Turn or Duck...where does it say falling is still legal?

Falling without any contact is very different than starting to fall before contact. Two different things.

Peace

[PG_Ref]

Originally Posted by justacoach

Help a brotha out...Rules reference, please?

I'm guessing the reference is to "faking" being fouled ... 10-3-6-f

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by JohnDorian37

At some point he's no longer vertical and then it is certainly a block.

Verticality is earned by virtue of obtaining, then maintaining LGP. It is not a requirement. You're definitely screwing over the defender by making this erroneous call. If B1 has earned a call when vertical and A1 intrudes even further into backward leaning B1's space while initiating contact, A1 is totally and thoroughly at fault. I am calling PC on this play every time.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

Turn or Duck...where does it say falling is still legal?

What is the intent of "turn or duck"? It's that the player is not required to "stand in there and take it" for this to be a foul. The purpose of turning or ducking is self-preservation. So is starting to fall before contact (setting aside any argument about faking being fouled).

But if you want something else to hang your hat on, then consider that a defender, planted in the ball handler's path has established LGP. And one provision of LGP is: "The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it is not toward the opponent when contact occurs."

Falling backward, as Jeff pointed out earlier, is not movement "toward the opponent".

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by PG_Ref

I'm guessing the reference is to "faking" being fouled ... 10-3-6-f

That would be the one.

I have also had a 'no call' on this situation. And I had a play like this last night.

[justacoach]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

That would be the one.

I have also had a 'no call' on this situation. And I had a play like this last night.

Horse of quite a different color compared to the OP. The differences are obvious to the trained observer. Certainly not an 'automatic' in either circumstance