Duke v Mich State

[Nevadaref]

Video Request:
6:02 remaining in the second half.

Jay Bilas stated that the official Lamont Simpson told him that it was "a live-ball, contact technical foul."

What???

[FormerUmp]

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...ow-thrown.html

If these could be merged?

[Nevadaref]

My opinion is a flagrant 2 (personal) foul.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Video Request:
6:02 remaining in the second half.

Jay Bilas stated that the official Lamont Simpson told him that it was "a live-ball, contact technical foul."

What???

Yeah that’s not a thing. I also have a Flagrant 2 on the play.

[JRutledge]

I just saw the play, I am very confused. There is no such foul? This is either a Flagrant Foul (1 or 2) or nothing. The ball was clearly live and you cannot give the ball at the division line for this kind of T. I think the officials out talked themselves on this one.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Here is the play.



Peace

[Camron Rust]

It looked to me like he was trying to slap away the arm of the MSU player that was holding onto him, not slinging an elbow. The elbow making contact was "incidental" to that (and I don't mean to say this was incidental contact).

I could go with an F1, but I do not believe there was an intent to harm here.

[FormerUmp]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It looked to me like he was trying to slap away the arm of the MSU player that was holding onto him, not slinging an elbow. The elbow making contact was "incidental" to that (and I don't mean to say this was incidental contact).

I could go with an F1, but I do not believe there was an intent to harm here.

I can see what you're saying, but he still hit the guy in the face with his elbow. I think he got off easy. I think that level of recklessness should be treated similarly to if he'd blatantly elbowed him in the face.

[crosscountry55]

Meh. It’s not like he wound up and slammed him. Did you see that little, “oops, crap I hit his head” look on his face? F1.

Wrong guy shot FTs, ball was inbounded 47 feet from where it should have been, and now the offender is only one vice two Ts from ejection. It’s really bad to kick a rule at this level; it’s even worse to make up a new type of foul on the fly. That was a big oops. Shouldn’t have happened.


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[Raymond]

I have an F1. He didn't size up or target the opponent, and he didn't "throw" an elbow. He was attempting to swat away the hand the was pulling on his jersey; he didn't even know where the opponents face was. No way in hell that warrants an ejection.

I am extremely bothered that the adjudication was botched.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by FormerUmp

I can see what you're saying, but he still hit the guy in the face with his elbow. I think he got off easy. I think that level of recklessness should be treated similarly to if he'd blatantly elbowed him in the face.

It wasn't even reckless. Players swat away opponents' hands all the time. It wasn't even a demonstrative movement. Treating those 2 acts the same would be detrimental to a basketball official's career.

[BryanV21]

I'd have a hard time ejecting a player for what is clearly an accidental elbow. From what I see Carter was simply trying to slap away the defenders arm, as the defender grabbed his jersey.

Going strictly by the rules, this may indeed be a FF2... which includes ejection. But a FF1 would suffice. What doesn't work at all is making something up.

[rockyroad]

Does the jersey grab (an Int foul in NFHS) also count as an FF1 in NCAA?? If so, why not double foul call here?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Does the jersey grab (an Int foul in NFHS) also count as an FF1 in NCAA?? If so, why not double foul call here?

A jersey grab isn't automatically an intentional foul in NFHS. Usually it's a common foul for holding. It, along with any other type of contact foul, is intentional in NFHS if it meets the parameters of such.

As to the subject of whether you could call a double personal foul here....sure, you could. But, I'd probably be passing on the marginal jersey hold and then get surprised by the elbow. I'd be reluctant, at that point, to re-evaluate the hold as something more than marginal just because of how the other guy reacted. I want to get the big foul here.

If the two fouls were a little more bang-bang, then maybe DPF makes sense. Otherwise I'm probably not calling it that way. I like to save my DPFs for those few times in a season where they really stand out as a good use of a tool. This wouldn't be one of those times, IMHO.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

A jersey grab isn't automatically an intentional foul in NFHS. Usually it's a common foul for holding. It, along with any other type of contact foul, is intentional in NFHS if it meets the parameters of such.

As to the subject of whether you could call a double personal foul here....sure, you could. But, I'd probably be passing on the marginal jersey hold and then get surprised by the elbow. I'd be reluctant, at that point, to re-evaluate the hold as something more than marginal just because of how the other guy reacted. I want to get the big foul here.

If the two fouls were a little more bang-bang, then maybe DPF makes sense. Otherwise I'm probably not calling it that way. I like to save my DPFs for those few times in a season where they really stand out as a good use of a tool. This wouldn't be one of those times, IMHO.

#1) This plays illustrates why the Trail should never leave opponents unmonitored in the backcourt.

#2) This is why you don't pass on players intentionally pulling the jersey of an opponent.