Duke v Mich State

[Raymond]

I have an F1. He didn't size up or target the opponent, and he didn't "throw" an elbow. He was attempting to swat away the hand the was pulling on his jersey; he didn't even know where the opponents face was. No way in hell that warrants an ejection.

I am extremely bothered that the adjudication was botched.

[BryanV21]

I'd have a hard time ejecting a player for what is clearly an accidental elbow. From what I see Carter was simply trying to slap away the defenders arm, as the defender grabbed his jersey.

Going strictly by the rules, this may indeed be a FF2... which includes ejection. But a FF1 would suffice. What doesn't work at all is making something up.

[rockyroad]

Does the jersey grab (an Int foul in NFHS) also count as an FF1 in NCAA?? If so, why not double foul call here?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Does the jersey grab (an Int foul in NFHS) also count as an FF1 in NCAA?? If so, why not double foul call here?

A jersey grab isn't automatically an intentional foul in NFHS. Usually it's a common foul for holding. It, along with any other type of contact foul, is intentional in NFHS if it meets the parameters of such.

As to the subject of whether you could call a double personal foul here....sure, you could. But, I'd probably be passing on the marginal jersey hold and then get surprised by the elbow. I'd be reluctant, at that point, to re-evaluate the hold as something more than marginal just because of how the other guy reacted. I want to get the big foul here.

If the two fouls were a little more bang-bang, then maybe DPF makes sense. Otherwise I'm probably not calling it that way. I like to save my DPFs for those few times in a season where they really stand out as a good use of a tool. This wouldn't be one of those times, IMHO.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

A jersey grab isn't automatically an intentional foul in NFHS. Usually it's a common foul for holding. It, along with any other type of contact foul, is intentional in NFHS if it meets the parameters of such.

As to the subject of whether you could call a double personal foul here....sure, you could. But, I'd probably be passing on the marginal jersey hold and then get surprised by the elbow. I'd be reluctant, at that point, to re-evaluate the hold as something more than marginal just because of how the other guy reacted. I want to get the big foul here.

If the two fouls were a little more bang-bang, then maybe DPF makes sense. Otherwise I'm probably not calling it that way. I like to save my DPFs for those few times in a season where they really stand out as a good use of a tool. This wouldn't be one of those times, IMHO.

#1) This plays illustrates why the Trail should never leave opponents unmonitored in the backcourt.

#2) This is why you don't pass on players intentionally pulling the jersey of an opponent.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Raymond

#1) This plays illustrates why the Trail should never leave opponents unmonitored in the backcourt.

#2) This is why you don't pass on players intentionally pulling the jersey of an opponent.

#1) Great point.

#2) I went back and looked at the video again, and you're right, this is more egregious than I first thought. The replay angles don't show it well, but the live angle at the very beginning of the clip was telling. B34's shirt was pulled at a 30° angle. Yeah, that's probably not a hold one should pass on. Still a common foul, though.

Intent doesn't matter a whit to me. I look at mode of contact (elbow) and location of contact (head and neck area), and whether the contact is excessive/unnecessary or excessive and also severe/extreme.

For me, this contact is excessive and severe. Therefore, Flagrant 2. I have a Flagrant 1 for the jersey pull.