More NCAA-M Questions

[dahoopref]

Rule 2, Section 11, Art. 6. Stop the timing device and reset it to 30 seconds:
of the ball, as in loose ball situations.

b. When any of the following occurs:
1. A single personal foul;
2. A single technical foul assessed to the defensive team;
3. A double personal foul when only one of the fouls is a flagrant foul.
(Exception: When a personal or technical foul or kicking/fisting violation is
committed by the defense and the ball is to be inbounded by the offense
in the front court, the shot-clock will be reset to 20 seconds or the time
remaining on the shot clock, whichever is greater.)

Originally Posted by gamefaceref

Any word on what to do in the front court when A1 shoots a three and then B5 holds A5 in the paint. Shot goes in. Team A's ball and shot clock is reset to 30 or 20?

This scenario was sent to Art Hyland and there has been no clarification that I know of yet.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Shot clock reset to 30 due to a shot being taken by Team A.

Respectfully, I was in the same boat as you initially. It made sense, a try for goal (whether made or not) strikes the rim will automatically re-set the shot clock to 30-seconds.

But it states:

Sec 11, Art 6, d. When a try for goal strikes the ring or flange and then control is gained by either team;

When the try for goal is in flight, there is no team control. Since no control is gained by either team when the foul is called during a try for goal by Team A, reset the shot clock to 20-seconds if there is an offball foul on Team B.

JMO. Please discuss if there are other views.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

When the try for goal is in flight, there is no team control. Since no control is gained by either team when the foul is called during a try for goal by Team A, reset the shot clock to 20-seconds if there is an offball foul on Team B.

JMO. Please discuss if there are other views.

How could there not be a full reset after a successful try? That makes no sense at all. Once the try strikes the rim or enters the basket, we have a full reset regardless of who gets control.

By that reasoning, a rebounding foul by the defensive team would never get a full reset, and I don't think that can be the intent of the rule.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

This scenario was sent to Art Hyland and there has been no clarification that I know of yet.


Respectfully, I was in the same boat as you initially. It made sense, a try for goal (whether made or not) strikes the rim will automatically re-set the shot clock to 30-seconds.

But it states:

When the try for goal is in flight, there is no team control. Since no control is gained by either team when the foul is called during a try for goal by Team A, reset the shot clock to 20-seconds if there is an offball foul on Team B.

JMO. Please discuss if there are other views.

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

How could there not be a full reset after a successful try? That makes no sense at all. Once the try strikes the rim or enters the basket, we have a full reset regardless of who gets control.

By that reasoning, a rebounding foul by the defensive team would never get a full reset, and I don't think that can be the intent of the rule.

So is the logic also that a try that's gets lodged and Team A retains possession via AP would also only reset to 20?

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Raymond

So is the logic also that a try that's gets lodged and Team A retains possession via AP would also only reset to 20?

Any time a try hits the ring or is successful, the shot clock resets to 30. That's the WHOLE point of a shot clock. Once you take a shot that hits the ring, it resets. I can't imagine the rationale for not having a reset when the offense has done exactly what you've asked them to do.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Any time a try hits the ring or is successful, the shot clock resets to 30. That's the WHOLE point of a shot clock. Once you take a shot that hits the ring, it resets. I can't imagine the rationale for not having a reset when the offense has done exactly what you've asked them to do.

The other point is that when a team retains control of the ball in the frontcourt after a foul, they don't need the extra 10 seconds on the shot clock. They're not bringing the ball up from the backcourt. They only need 20 to get to a shot. I don't know which is the right answer here but I can see arguments for both possibilities. You could even argue that since they actually scored points, 20 is more appropriate. That logic, however, would make the reset depend not on the ball hitting the rim but on the make and I'm pretty sure that isn't it.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

How could there not be a full reset after a successful try? That makes no sense at all. Once the try strikes the rim or enters the basket, we have a full reset regardless of who gets control.

By that reasoning, a rebounding foul by the defensive team would never get a full reset, and I don't think that can be the intent of the rule.

Believe me, I have struggled with this rule and the Pandora's Box of problem scenarios that ensued.

By rule, if the defensive team commits a non-shooting foul in the front court with less than 20 seconds on the shot clock (and not in the bonus), then the shotclock is placed at 20 seconds. There is no ambiguity to that rule.

Originally Posted by Raymond

So is the logic also that a try that's gets lodged and Team A retains possession via AP would also only reset to 20?

In this case, it is not a violation by the defense therefore a full reset to 30 seconds is in order if Team A has the AP arrow.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

Believe me, I have struggled with this rule and the Pandora's Box of problem scenarios that ensued.

By rule, if the defensive team commits a non-shooting foul in the front court with less than 20 seconds on the shot clock (and not in the bonus), then the shotclock is placed at 20 seconds. There is no ambiguity to that rule.

...

My logic on this play is that the ball is not dead until the try ends. So the foul is enforced when there is no time on the shot clock.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by Raymond

My logic on this play is that the ball is not dead until the try ends. So the foul is enforced when there is no time on the shot clock.

I agree with you with that part whole-heartedly.

By the rulebook definition, the shot clock is reset to 30-seconds "When a try for goal strikes the ring or flange and then control is gained by either team"

There is no "team control" nor is the ball gained while the ball is in flight in the scenario of the off-ball foul by Team B. IOW, if the ball hits the ring and then a foul on Team B occurs, then I agree with you; reset to 30 seconds.

In the original question by the OP, there is no team control while the ball is in flight when a foul on Team B occurs before it hits the ring and the ball is not gained by either team.

This scenario happened at a scrimmage of mine on Saturday and the whole crew had a great post-game discussion about this play; broke out the rulebook and everything. I was in the camp with you with the same line of thinking. After much discussion, the crew was able to change my thoughts on this play. Maybe you (and others on this board) can re-convince me.

I really hope Art Hyland clarifies these types of situations soon.

[johnny d]

The When B5 held A5, while the ball was in flight on a try, neither team had team control. Therefore, for a brief period of time, neither team is on offense or defense. Since the foul was not a defensive foul, the new rule does not apply. Reset the clock as normal after a change of possession. Team A ball with 30 seconds on the shot clock.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

I agree with you with that part whole-heartedly.

By the rulebook definition, the shot clock is reset to 30-seconds "When a try for goal strikes the ring or flange and then control is gained by either team"

...

Once the ball hits the ring (or goes through the basket), the shot clock theoretically is no longer running. A1 shoots, B5 fouls A5, ball hits ring than bounds way up in the air before going through the basket. Once that ball hits the ring, the shot clock no longer has any status (under 20, over 20, 2 seconds, 29 seconds, etc.).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by dahoopref

I agree with you with that part whole-heartedly.

By the rulebook definition, the shot clock is reset to 30-seconds "When a try for goal strikes the ring or flange and then control is gained by either team"

Does B (or maybe A -- I forget the play) gets control on the throw-in? The rules doesn't say "gets control before the clock stops"