Two Play Situations, Same Concept?

[IUgrad92]

Had a lengthy dialogue yesterday with a fellow official. Here are a few play situations that I would like to get some feedback on......

1) A1 inbounds ball to A2 in backcourt on endline. A2 pivots and sees the remaining 8 players all lined up, shoulder to shoulder, right in front of him. A2 throws the ball up and over the line of 8 players (untouched), runs through the 'picket fence' of players and is the first to track the ball down (ball bounces a few times) and possess it in the paint in A2's frontcourt. A2 shoots the ball and scores. Legal?

2) A1 superman dives on floor for loose ball, as she is sliding possesses the ball with both hands. When her momentum stops, the ball in her possession resting on the floor. She then pushes the ball away from herself and the ball rolls. She pops up and chases the ball down, is first to touch, picks up the ball and starts dribbling. What is your call, if any, and when would you have a whistle, if any?

[Raymond]

1. Legal play

2. I have a travel. (Don't have a rules citation at the moment, but a player in possession of the ball on the ground cannot put the ball down, then get up, then re-possess the ball).

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

2) A1 superman dives on floor for loose ball, as she is sliding possesses the ball with both hands.

"Superman" is a "she?" Did I miss something on the news?

[IUgrad92]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

"Superman" is a "she?" Did I miss something on the news?

Rest easy Mark..... superman was used as an adverb in this situation, not a noun, so nothing has changed in your world!!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by IUgrad92

Had a lengthy dialogue yesterday with a fellow official. Here are a few play situations that I would like to get some feedback on......

1) A1 inbounds ball to A2 in backcourt on endline. A2 pivots and sees the remaining 8 players all lined up, shoulder to shoulder, right in front of him. A2 throws the ball up and over the line of 8 players (untouched), runs through the 'picket fence' of players and is the first to track the ball down (ball bounces a few times) and possess it in the paint in A2's frontcourt. A2 shoots the ball and scores. Legal?

2) A1 superman dives on floor for loose ball, as she is sliding possesses the ball with both hands. When her momentum stops, the ball in her possession resting on the floor. She then pushes the ball away from herself and the ball rolls. She pops up and chases the ball down, is first to touch, picks up the ball and starts dribbling. What is your call, if any, and when would you have a whistle, if any?

Originally Posted by Raymond

1. Legal play

2. I have a travel. (Don't have a rules citation at the moment, but a player in possession of the ball on the ground cannot put the ball down, then get up, then re-possess the ball).

Play #1: I agree with Raymond as long as A2 did not make any illegal contact with players on Team B while running through the "picket fence".


Play #2: I am leaning the in the opposite direction from Raymond because I would be inclined to rule that A2's act of releasing the ball when she rolled it away from herself is the start of her dribble. But I am open for discussion o this play.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Play #2: I am leaning the in the opposite direction from Raymond because I would be inclined to rule that A2's act of releasing the ball when she rolled it away from herself is the start of her dribble. But I am open for discussion o this play.

MTD, Sr.

Then, A2 picked up the ball, ending any dribble. Then, she dribbled again. So, it's a violation either way.

[HokiePaul]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Play #2: I am leaning the in the opposite direction from Raymond because I would be inclined to rule that A2's act of releasing the ball when she rolled it away from herself is the start of her dribble. But I am open for discussion o this play.

MTD, Sr.

I agree -- as described, I would consider "pushing the ball away" to be the start of the dribble. But if the player then picks up that ball (ends dribble) and starts dribbling it again that would be an illegal (double) dribble.

[youngump]

Originally Posted by Raymond

1. Legal play

I mostly just lurk here from another board but I thought I had an okay grasp of the rules. But this one surprised me. Why is 1 a legal play? A quick glance at the (NCAA) rules didn't find an obvious reason why it would be illegal. There seems to be no rule whatsoever against throwing the ball up in the air, running to grab it and doing this over and over as long as you are not "holding" the ball.
But if so, is this legal: A1 catches the ball in the post but his feet aren't well set. He takes a step to establish a pivot foot. He holds the ball up high and lets go gathering his other foot to a new spot and catches the ball in the air. He then pivots on his pivot putting the ball on the ground before lifting his pivot foot.

Or is there such a rule that I missed and this is considered legal because there's some interpretation that makes this a dribble even though it doesn't meet the definition?

[ODog]

Originally Posted by Raymond

2. I have a travel. (Don't have a rules citation at the moment, but a player in possession of the ball on the ground cannot put the ball down, then get up, then re-possess the ball).

Travel indeed.

Case 4.44.5B: "It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball."

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by youngump

I mostly just lurk here from another board but I thought I had an okay grasp of the rules. But this one surprised me. Why is 1 a legal play? A quick glance at the (NCAA) rules didn't find an obvious reason why it would be illegal. There seems to be no rule whatsoever against throwing the ball up in the air, running to grab it and doing this over and over as long as you are not "holding" the ball.
But if so, is this legal: A1 catches the ball in the post but his feet aren't well set. He takes a step to establish a pivot foot. He holds the ball up high and lets go gathering his other foot to a new spot and catches the ball in the air. He then pivots on his pivot putting the ball on the ground before lifting his pivot foot.

Or is there such a rule that I missed and this is considered legal because there's some interpretation that makes this a dribble even though it doesn't meet the definition?

In the OP, the ball touched the floor, making it a dribble (and, I assume, the ball was released before the pivot foot was lifted -- I didn't go back and check the OP). The dribble was continued. All legal.

In your play, the ball never touches the floor -- tossing the ball up in the air, running (well, moving the pivot foot) and catching the ball is a violation -- for a while it was travel, then it was illegal dribble, now it's ... well, it doesn't really matter, the other team is going to get the ball.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Play #2: I am leaning the in the opposite direction from Raymond because I would be inclined to rule that A2's act of releasing the ball when she rolled it away from herself is the start of her dribble. But I am open for discussion o this play.

It seems to me the initial question is whether it was smoothly rolling or bouncing. The latter could be the start of a dribble -- which would then be a violation if that initial dribble ended and a new dribble began.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by ODog

Travel indeed. Case 4.44.5B: "It is also traveling if A1 puts the ball on the floor, then rises and is first to touch the ball."

A player must be holding the ball (with one very rare exception) in order to travel.

This is that one very rare exception.

[BillyMac]

A different slant (not exactly the same as the original post, the ball doesn't bounce in this caseplay):

4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

[BryanV21]

Wouldn't you need to determine if throwing the ball is deemed a pass or shot attempt? If so, the action is legal. Right?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Wouldn't you need to determine if throwing the ball is deemed a pass or shot attempt? If so, the action is legal. Right?

Correct -- but in the OP, with the action taking place in the BC and the ball bouncing several times before it reached the FC, the chances of it being deemed a try are pretty small.