Two Play Situations, Same Concept?

[Jqb12]

OK, yes I see. I was thinking of it in terms of a pass. Now, if it didn't hit the floor, and he caught it, then it's considered a pass.........that would be another issue - correct?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Jqb12

... if it didn't hit the floor, and he caught it, then it's considered a pass ... that would be another issue - correct?

Correct.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jqb12

OK, yes I see. I was thinking of it in terms of a pass. Now, if it didn't hit the floor, and he caught it, then it's considered a pass.........that would be another issue - correct?

No, it isn't a pass. A pass, by definition, is to another player.

It is an illegal dribble....the ball was throw "to" the floor but he caught it before it got there.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

It is an illegal dribble....

Illegal dribble, or travel?

The citation in the casebook play is 9-4: TRAVEL, KICK, FIST, BALL ENTERS BASKET FROM BELOW, not 9-5: ILLEGAL DRIBBLE.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Also, the casebook play number (4.44.3 SITUATION D) refers to 4-44 which deals with TRAVELING. DRIBBLING is in 4-15.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Illegal dribble, or travel?

The citation in the casebook play is 9-4: TRAVEL, KICK, FIST, BALL ENTERS BASKET FROM BELOW, not 9-5: ILLEGAL DRIBBLE.



Also, the casebook play number (4.44.3 SITUATION D) refers to 4-44 which deals with TRAVELING. DRIBBLING is in 4-15.

I could make an argument for either. The case has said both over the years.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Illegal dribble, or travel?

The citation in the casebook play is 9-4: TRAVEL, KICK, FIST, BALL ENTERS BASKET FROM BELOW, not 9-5: ILLEGAL DRIBBLE.



Also, the casebook play number (4.44.3 SITUATION D) refers to 4-44 which deals with TRAVELING. DRIBBLING is in 4-15.

Well, we need clarification don't we? What if A1 merely touched the ball and did not catch it? If it is traveling then we have another exception to the requirement of "holding" the ball. If it is an illegal dribble then the citation referenced needs to be edited. If it is something else then my head will explode, which isn't that rare.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Well, we need clarification don't we? If it is something else then my head will explode, which isn't that rare.

I'm not sure why it's a travel but I know that it's not an illegal dribble.

9-5 ILLEGAL DRIBBLE
A player shall not dribble a second time after his/her first dribble has ended.

Where's the second dribble. In fact, where's the first dribble.

The ball handler in question must be moving his pivot foot in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball, even if the only holding the ball is at the beginning of the play.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bucky

Well, we need clarification don't we? What if A1 merely touched the ball and did not catch it? If it is traveling then we have another exception to the requirement of "holding" the ball. If it is an illegal dribble then the citation referenced needs to be edited. If it is something else then my head will explode, which isn't that rare.

That's already covered by 4-15-2. A player is not permitted to touch the ball a second time during a dribble prior to it striking the floor.
The second touch is an illegal dribble violation.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4-15-2.

Nice citation Nevadaref.

4-15-2. During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

What if the ball isn't batted into the air, but rather is thrown into the air after being held with both feet on the floor (before it's dribbled even once)?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Certainly still illegal. But batted (implies no possession) isn't the same as thrown (implies possession).

The casebook play number (4.44.3) and the casebook play citation (9-4) both lead me to believe that this is a travel violation.

Nevadaref's rule number (4-15-2) deals with dribbling.

So, what type of violation is it?

It's a dravel, or maybe a a tribble.

Stupid NFHS rules editors.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nice citation Nevadaref.

4-15-2. During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

What if the ball isn't batted into the air, but rather is thrown into the air after being held with both feet on the floor (before it's dribbled even once)?

Certainly still illegal. But batted (implies no possession) isn't the same as thrown (implies possession).

The key with the above case us "during a dribble", implying the dribbler was already in progress. If the is thrown into the air, then the dribble wasn't already in progress.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

That's already covered by 4-15-2. A player is not permitted to touch the ball a second time during a dribble prior to it striking the floor.

I have always had trouble with this (sorry for getting off topic).

1) A1 is holding the ball in his right hand by having his hand under the ball. He simply removes his right hand and allows the ball to strike the floor.

Is that considered a dribble? Doesn't seem to be based on the definition of a dribble.

2) A1 is dribbling the ball with his right hand. A1 makes a move that results in the ball, after striking the floor and on an upward motion, deflecting off his left hand. With the ball still in the air, A1 continues dribbling with the right hand. Based on 4-15-2, that would be an illegal dribble. I really do not see any official calling that. Or might it be considered an interrupted dribble and be legal by rule? Think of how many times dribblers literally touch the ball a second time before their dribble hits the floor. Happens all the time and I have never seen it called.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by bucky

I have always had trouble with this (sorry for getting off topic).

1) A1 is holding the ball in his right hand by having his hand under the ball. He simply removes his right hand and allows the ball to strike the floor.

Is that considered a dribble? Doesn't seem to be based on the definition of a dribble.

2) A1 is dribbling the ball with his right hand. A1 makes a move that results in the ball, after striking the floor and on an upward motion, deflecting off his left hand. With the ball still in the air, A1 continues dribbling with the right hand. Based on 4-15-2, that would be an illegal dribble. I really do not see any official calling that. Or might it be considered an interrupted dribble and be legal by rule? Think of how many times dribblers literally touch the ball a second time before their dribble hits the floor. Happens all the time and I have never seen it called.

1. Yes.

2. I've never seen that

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bucky

I have always had trouble with this (sorry for getting off topic).


2) A1 is dribbling the ball with his right hand. A1 makes a move that results in the ball, after striking the floor and on an upward motion, deflecting off his left hand. With the ball still in the air, A1 continues dribbling with the right hand. Based on 4-15-2, that would be an illegal dribble. I really do not see any official calling that. Or might it be considered an interrupted dribble and be legal by rule? Think of how many times dribblers literally touch the ball a second time before their dribble hits the floor. Happens all the time and I have never seen it called.

I've called it. Been a while, but I have.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bucky

I have always had trouble with this (sorry for getting off topic).

1) A1 is holding the ball in his right hand by having his hand under the ball. He simply removes his right hand and allows the ball to strike the floor.

Is that considered a dribble? Doesn't seem to be based on the definition of a dribble.

2) A1 is dribbling the ball with his right hand. A1 makes a move that results in the ball, after striking the floor and on an upward motion, deflecting off his left hand. With the ball still in the air, A1 continues dribbling with the right hand. Based on 4-15-2, that would be an illegal dribble. I really do not see any official calling that. Or might it be considered an interrupted dribble and be legal by rule? Think of how many times dribblers literally touch the ball a second time before their dribble hits the floor. Happens all the time and I have never seen it called.

Start with a player holding the ball.
Any deliberate action by the player to release the ball is either a dribble, a pass, or a try for goal. An accidental release of the ball is a fumble.
Given that we can now answer your above questions.
1. Since the release is deliberate (dropping the ball on purpose), this isn't a fumble. We also can easily determine that it is not an attempt to throw for goal, so it is not a try. That leaves a pass or dribble. If the ball goes to another player it is a pass by NFHS definition. If it goes straight to the floor, it is a dribble by NFHS definition. You may wait to see who touches it next, if you so desire to determine between dribble and pass, if the situation warrants. However, you are certainly correct to deem that this action meets the definition of a dribble as soon as it reaches the floor because dropping the ball is merely "throwing" it without the player imparting any force and allowing just gravity to act upon the ball and take it to the floor.

2. Yes, that is an illegal dribble by rule. A player is not allowed two separate touches between bounces during a dribble. If you are not calling this, you are missing a violation.
Quick story: I was a PG in HS. My frosh coach actually taught us this illegal dribble move to split double teams. He even told us it was illegal and added that the officials will almost never call it because it happens so fast. The concept was a hard bounce of the ball wit your outside hand (away from the double team/trap) and when the ball came back up to that hand to quickly bat it across your belly to your other hand as you stepped through/between the trap and then bounce the ball with your other hand and continue on. After some practice, I got pretty good at it and the coach was right that the officials almost never whistled it.