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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat Jun 10, 2017, 10:22pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grunewar View Post
Y'all watch the games together and get the play-by-play?
Almost never watch games for mindless entertainment. Plus, live TV doesn't have on demand instant replay.

They'll follow up on the NBA ref resource video of the game which includes a choice of many varied camera angles if there are plays worth reviewing. These camera angles aren't part of the TV broadcast feed.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 11, 2017, 04:54am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
Almost never watch games for mindless entertainment. Plus, live TV doesn't have on demand instant replay.

They'll follow up on the NBA ref resource video of the game which includes a choice of many varied camera angles if there are plays worth reviewing. These camera angles aren't part of the TV broadcast feed.
That is the problem right there. The NBA game is vastly different from what we see at the NCAA and NFHS levels. The rules are also different. In fact, they differ so much that attempting to apply what the NBA does would be erroneous at the levels which I work.
The philosophy is not in accordance. See my previous comments on this forum to Ben Taylor.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Jun 11, 2017, 09:47pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
That is the problem right there. The NBA game is vastly different from what we see at the NCAA and NFHS levels. The rules are also different. In fact, they differ so much that attempting to apply what the NBA does would be erroneous at the levels which I work.
The philosophy is not in accordance. See my previous comments on this forum to Ben Taylor.
The NBA is more in line with other levels than the other major sports. That is for damn sure.

I never get it when people keep trying to act like the NBA is so different in rules or philosophy when it is simply not true.

Peace
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 12, 2017, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
The NBA is more in line with other levels than the other major sports. That is for damn sure.

I never get it when people keep trying to act like the NBA is so different in rules or philosophy when it is simply not true.

Peace
Well, except for traveling, continuation, legality of zone defense, the shot clock, bonus free throws, jump balls after the initial jump, and the numbers players can wear, you're right. It is pretty much the same game.

A foul is a foul. Legal Guarding Position is the same at all levels, the regular flow of play is essentially the same as far as how to officiate it. I think watching the NBA officials is highly useful for gaining insights on officiating, generally. They are the very best.

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 12, 2017, 03:44pm
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NFHS v NBA differences
(A quick list after only a couple minutes of thought)
Backcourt count- length and reset
Shot clock
Closely-guarded
BI & GT -- backboard
Block/charge--upward movement & RA
Screens
Zone defense
FT lane width
Court length
3pt line distance & shape
How Ts count or don't as individual fouls
5 fouls v 6 fouls
32 minutes v 48 minutes
Trash talking v sporting behavior emphasis
Showboating and hanging on the ring
Jumpball restarts
Backcourt access on throw-ins
Traveling rules
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 12, 2017, 04:25pm
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Zone defense is no longer an NBA rule. The present rule is defensive 3 seconds although you could argue that it tries to do the same thing the zone defense rule did.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 12, 2017, 07:57pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
NFHS v NBA differences
(A quick list after only a couple minutes of thought)
Backcourt count- length and reset
Shot clock
Closely-guarded
BI & GT -- backboard
Block/charge--upward movement & RA
Screens
Zone defense
FT lane width
Court length
3pt line distance & shape
How Ts count or don't as individual fouls
5 fouls v 6 fouls
32 minutes v 48 minutes
Trash talking v sporting behavior emphasis
Showboating and hanging on the ring
Jumpball restarts
Backcourt access on throw-ins
Traveling rules
Also: NBA pays it's players a little more than NFHS - although not much more than NCAA.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 03:50am
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Send a message via Yahoo to grunewar
So much for the "conspiracy theorists" that had the Refs helping the Cavaliers with game five so it would go to a game six ($$). Yawn.....
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 07:33am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
Well, except for traveling, continuation, legality of zone defense, the shot clock, bonus free throws, jump balls after the initial jump, and the numbers players can wear, you're right. It is pretty much the same game.

A foul is a foul. Legal Guarding Position is the same at all levels, the regular flow of play is essentially the same as far as how to officiate it. I think watching the NBA officials is highly useful for gaining insights on officiating, generally. They are the very best.

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Continuation? What's different?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 07:57am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
NFHS v NBA differences
(A quick list after only a couple minutes of thought)
Backcourt count- length and reset
Shot clock
Closely-guarded
BI & GT -- backboard
Block/charge--upward movement & RA
Screens
Zone defense
FT lane width
Court length
3pt line distance & shape
How Ts count or don't as individual fouls
5 fouls v 6 fouls
32 minutes v 48 minutes
Trash talking v sporting behavior emphasis
Showboating and hanging on the ring
Jumpball restarts
Backcourt access on throw-ins
Traveling rules
What do those rules have to do with how the game basically looks? If you call a foul for example, the result is basically the same. A team called for a violation loses the ball. If a team is called for a you either get shots or you get the ball out of bounds. It is not like football where a foul might not even be enforced from the same spot or you get an automatic first down during certain actions in the NFL and never come close to that in a high school game. We as football can watch an NFL game and not have a single application of a foul the same, but not one goes around and says, "You cannot watch the NFL and understand what is going on." But for some reason we act like the NBA is a different animal. Well I can tell you the NFL has about 300 rules differences to the NF or high school rules. College football has about 200 or so more differences from the NFL and no one says you cannot learn how to call a holding foul from the NFL. As a matter of fact many of the philosophies on what is a foul often comes from the NFL as they have video and training that has trickled down.

If the claim is that the philosophies are different, of course they are on some level. You have adults compared to children playing. That is the case at any professional level compared to high school aged kids. The way a manager in baseball comes out to argue a safe/out call is totally different than what is allowed from the MLB to NF or even youth baseball. You cannot restrict that manager to the dugout in the pros. I am sure and know that language is allowed with adults that would never be allowed with kids. Again everyone is getting paid well so I would expect there to be some differences. The bottom line is when I see a foul in the NBA if I am a student of the game I know why that fouls or violation is called and not totally confused. If I am confused that confused, I never watched a basketball game. Many of us became officials because of what we liked or witnessed at the pro or college level. We often learn that those rules are vastly different in certain areas, but the general job we are doing is exactly the same.

Peace
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:42am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Continuation? What's different?
In NFHS, if a foul occurs prior to the act of shooting, any following movement that sends the ball through the basket is not a goal, as it occurred during a dead ball. Period, full stop.

In the NBA, players are given a "lag" time to continue their initial motion, so as to get a three point play

From Bill James's 2015 article "Discontinue Continuation"

Quote:
.. if a player is fouled in the act of shooting and makes the shot, the shot counts as long as the shooter completes the shot using a continuous motion begun before the foul.***
No such rule exists in NFHS.

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 08:43am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
What do those rules have to do with how the game basically looks? If you call a foul for example, the result is basically the same. A team called for a violation loses the ball. If a team is called for a you either get shots or you get the ball out of bounds. It is not like football where a foul might not even be enforced from the same spot or you get an automatic first down during certain actions in the NFL and never come close to that in a high school game. We as football can watch an NFL game and not have a single application of a foul the same, but not one goes around and says, "You cannot watch the NFL and understand what is going on." But for some reason we act like the NBA is a different animal. Well I can tell you the NFL has about 300 rules differences to the NF or high school rules. College football has about 200 or so more differences from the NFL and no one says you cannot learn how to call a holding foul from the NFL. As a matter of fact many of the philosophies on what is a foul often comes from the NFL as they have video and training that has trickled down.

If the claim is that the philosophies are different, of course they are on some level. You have adults compared to children playing. That is the case at any professional level compared to high school aged kids. The way a manager in baseball comes out to argue a safe/out call is totally different than what is allowed from the MLB to NF or even youth baseball. You cannot restrict that manager to the dugout in the pros. I am sure and know that language is allowed with adults that would never be allowed with kids. Again everyone is getting paid well so I would expect there to be some differences. The bottom line is when I see a foul in the NBA if I am a student of the game I know why that fouls or violation is called and not totally confused. If I am confused that confused, I never watched a basketball game. Many of us became officials because of what we liked or witnessed at the pro or college level. We often learn that those rules are vastly different in certain areas, but the general job we are doing is exactly the same.

Peace
+1 well said. I officiate baseball in Massachusetts where we use OBR, or pro rules. The substitution rules make a huge difference in the game. There are also differences in the slide rule. Those two rule differences change how the game is played from NFHS. Plus, we use 2 man mechanics in most NFHS games, which is a HUGE difference versus the 4 man game at the MLB level.

Basketball is, by and large, a simple game. There are just not that many rules, so there aren't that many rules differences. The only sport that translates from the top level to the bottom with fewer rule differences, in my opinion, is soccer.

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Last edited by Mbilica; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 08:50am.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 09:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
In NFHS, if a foul occurs prior to the act of shooting, any following movement that sends the ball through the basket is not a goal, as it occurred during a dead ball. Period, full stop.

In the NBA, players are given a "lag" time to continue their initial motion, so as to get a three point play

From Bill James's 2015 article "Discontinue Continuation"



No such rule exists in NFHS.

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I am going to have to disagree with you adamantly on this one. Because the rule in the NF basically says that once you start the motion you are allowed to continue that motion to the basket. That means as long as you do not dribble, or make a move not associated with any other action, the basket should could. The NBA just teaches it better and the "lag time" you reference is not anything different in the NF rule. That is why people have gone to saying "The gather" is the starting point of a shot. But if you put the ball down again after being fouled in an NBA game, the time to be awarded shots on a foul is over. That happened a couple of times in the NBA Finals alone and the issue was if they should give shots or not after the foul. Players at that level do what they can to get the advantage where high school players feel they need to complete their predetermined move. And high school officials have convinced themselves the rule is different and do everything to not awarded a shot. That is why there is the long standing myth used, "on the floor." It is clear that many high school officials do not realize that the shooting motion has little to do with if you are on the floor or not.

Peace
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 09:24am
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
There are also differences in the slide rule.
They maybe we should all use an abacus?
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jun 13, 2017, 11:04am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I am going to have to disagree with you adamantly on this one. Because the rule in the NF basically says that once you start the motion you are allowed to continue that motion to the basket. That means as long as you do not dribble, or make a move not associated with any other action, the basket should could. The NBA just teaches it better and the "lag time" you reference is not anything different in the NF rule. That is why people have gone to saying "The gather" is the starting point of a shot. But if you put the ball down again after being fouled in an NBA game, the time to be awarded shots on a foul is over. That happened a couple of times in the NBA Finals alone and the issue was if they should give shots or not after the foul. Players at that level do what they can to get the advantage where high school players feel they need to complete their predetermined move. And high school officials have convinced themselves the rule is different and do everything to not awarded a shot. That is why there is the long standing myth used, "on the floor." It is clear that many high school officials do not realize that the shooting motion has little to do with if you are on the floor or not.

Peace
I disagree with your blanket assessment of HS referees. Here in my IAABO chapter in Connecticut, we are taught from the beginning that the act of shooting begins as soon as the shooter ends his dribble. We can call it a shooting foul if the player could have conceivably been in the act of shooting at the time of the foul. This can and does mean that a shooting foul can arise from a player who is fouled as he picks up the dribble, regardless of whether the shooter proceeds to take a legal step, jump, or otherwise rise up and shoot, or even if the player is unable to complete any of these acts due to the foul. What I see in the NBA is players getting two or even three steps following the foul and still being given "continuation". It is a different interpretation. Im sure a quick youtube search would reveal a lot of examples of "and ones" in the NBA that would not be three point plays in NFHS.

But there is no reason to quibble on this. The continuation interpretation has a very small impact on the game and your original point still holds.

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Last edited by Mbilica; Tue Jun 13, 2017 at 11:10am.
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