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  #61 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 03, 2017, 02:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IncorrectCall View Post
Meaning? We are talking about mechanics, not officiating skill/talent.

It takes no certain level of the latter to use a set of mechanics.
Yes and mechanics are developed based on the skill of the participants using them. There is a reason the NF in just about every sport keeps things very basic an vanilla. Again, you are dealing with people that have never officiated to people that have 50 years in the same process. You start requiring or even having things that many do not pay attention to in the first place, you might get a certain level of inconsistency. Again it seems only people that really care what the NF does are people that work other levels. Rarely do I hear a only high school officials really get upset over a mechanics change. For example my state in another sport is changing a mechanic that has been the standard in college and in pro for years. My state wants to make that change and there are already people complaining about that change to the point where there are even people suggesting they will not do the change (which will be very noticeable). Everyone is not clamoring to do what the other levels do or advocate, even if you or I feel it is a better process.

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 03, 2017, 02:38pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Yes and mechanics are developed based on the skill of the participants using them. There is a reason the NF in just about every sport keeps things very basic an vanilla. Again, you are dealing with people that have never officiated to people that have 50 years in the same process. You start requiring or even having things that many do not pay attention to in the first place, you might get a certain level of inconsistency. Again it seems only people that really care what the NF does are people that work other levels. Rarely do I hear a only high school officials really get upset over a mechanics change. For example my state in another sport is changing a mechanic that has been the standard in college and in pro for years. My state wants to make that change and there are already people complaining about that change to the point where there are even people suggesting they will not do the change (which will be very noticeable). Everyone is not clamoring to do what the other levels do or advocate, even if you or I feel it is a better process.
I disagree. I don't think the NBA mechanics are something that only their super-highly-trained officials can pull off. The NBA has those really good refs yes, but their system is also superior -- regardless of level of referee.

For example the NFHS says for Lead to watch rebounding when the Trail has a 3-point shooter in the corner. The NBA does the opposite, has the Lead official referee the 3-point shooter in the corner and tells Trail to close down and referee post rebounding action. This makes perfect sense for a bunch of reasons: the Lead is closer to the 3-point shooter and the Trail official naturally has a better big-picture possession-consequence view on rebounding action.

This would not be difficult for your average HS varsity ref to pick up.....it's literally the same responsibility as before, just switching up who does what. Sure there would be an adjustment period but that's not we are talking about. We are talking about which system is better, full stop.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 03, 2017, 02:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
I disagree. I don't think the NBA mechanics are something that only their super-highly-trained officials can pull off. The NBA has those really good refs yes, but their system is also superior -- regardless of level of referee.

For example the NFHS says for Lead to watch rebounding when the Trail has a 3-point shooter in the corner. The NBA does the opposite, has the Lead official referee the 3-point shooter in the corner and tells Trail to close down and referee post rebounding action. This makes perfect sense for a bunch of reasons: the Lead is closer to the 3-point shooter and the Trail official naturally has a better big-picture possession-consequence view on rebounding action.

This would not be difficult for your average HS varsity ref to pick up.....it's literally the same responsibility as before, just switching up who does what. Sure there would be an adjustment period but that's not we are talking about. We are talking about which system is better, full stop.
+1. It takes 0 skill to look in a different (better) place. Probably LESS skill, if anything, to look at the play that makes the most sense. Or to dead ball switch in a way that keeps the game the most consistent.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 03, 2017, 03:16pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
I disagree. I don't think the NBA mechanics are something that only their super-highly-trained officials can pull off. The NBA has those really good refs yes, but their system is also superior -- regardless of level of referee.
That is a matter of opinion, but you have a right to hold that opinion. Superior is not the word I would use. Different is a better word based on the way their game is played.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
For example the NFHS says for Lead to watch rebounding when the Trail has a 3-point shooter in the corner. The NBA does the opposite, has the Lead official referee the 3-point shooter in the corner and tells Trail to close down and referee post rebounding action. This makes perfect sense for a bunch of reasons: the Lead is closer to the 3-point shooter and the Trail official naturally has a better big-picture possession-consequence view on rebounding action.
Sounds wonderful, but the NBA does not have a 5 second count, which you would have to decide who can or cannot have a count. Right now the Lead has not visible counts in NF mechanics (or NCAA Men's). The Lead in NF is more concerned with post play and post activity, which also takes place differently in the context of the NBA as you cannot as easily have two defenders guard an off ball player as you can in high school. The NBA does not even allow for a zone to take place as it is in the NF or NCAA, hence the 3 second defensive violation rule.

Also it is taught by many for the Lead to take a peak at a 3 point shooter in the corner, but most high school teams are not set up to keep a player in that corner. There are no real "isolation" at that level like the NBA. And that is also a rare situation as well in the game of basketball. Closer does not make you able to get a call correct either. You have to have a Trail that knows when to transition from on the ball to off the ball, which might be a little more complicated for officials we cannot get to stop watching the ball. Officials at the high school level that are not trained well or are not experienced miss off ball stuff all the time, where is harder to get consistency on than anything on ball.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
This would not be difficult for your average HS varsity ref to pick up.....it's literally the same responsibility as before, just switching up who does what. Sure there would be an adjustment period but that's not we are talking about. We are talking about which system is better, full stop.
Again, we are not dealing with a system that only the average official is using. Some are newer and yes there are places that do not only use 3 person for varsity. If I had not been in enough camps where officials do not do the stuff already asked of them because they are busy ball watching or not rotating properly, then we want to add more nuance to people who have trouble with other mechanics. I see it too often and when officials get those things right on a very consistent basis, then I might suggest these additions would be better.

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  #65 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 03, 2017, 04:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Right now the Lead has not visible counts in NF mechanics (or NCAA Men's).
I'll respond in depth to the rest later but this caught my eye. Little known fact but the Lead actually is supposed to count closely guarded in their area.

NFHS Mechanics Manual 5.3.2-B-1 "Officials are responsible for a silent and visible five-second closely guarded (within 6 feet) count within their primary coverage area."

Unlike the NCAA-M manual which splits the closely guarded count between the Trail and Slot officials, the NFHS makes no such distinction.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 03, 2017, 04:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
I'll respond in depth to the rest later but this caught my eye. Little known fact but the Lead actually is supposed to count closely guarded in their area.

NFHS Mechanics Manual 5.3.2-B-1 "Officials are responsible for a silent and visible five-second closely guarded (within 6 feet) count within their primary coverage area."

Unlike the NCAA-M manual which splits the closely guarded count between the Trail and Slot officials, the NFHS makes no such distinction.
That is all wonderful, but you realize that the NF Mechanics book is only as good as the state that chooses to use it. We were told in my state not to have a count as the lead. So even what we are discussing only applies if your state or jurisdiction chooses to use that standard. The NF book also said you can bounce or hand the ball for all throw-ins, but my state does not give that option on the end line (ever). And unless I notice differently, when I watch high school games in other media, I never see the lead give a count for closely guarded. And that has nothing to do with the NBA as they do not have such a count. They do have a different rule where they can give a count, but that does not apply to us. IJS.

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  #67 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 03, 2017, 06:44pm
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JRut you can't appeal to HS mechanics in one post and then dismiss them on the next because "my state doesn't follow them exactly". You said NFHS mechanics don't have the Lead count, which is untrue. I don't give a crap about what your state does.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 03, 2017, 08:29pm
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I'm not a fan of making change for the sake of change, or just because the guys and gals at higher levels are doing it.

Rich's point convinced me, though.

We spend so much time debating "five two" vs "fifty-two" and "blue" vs "Purple", can two-hand reporting really be more difficult than learning whether to put a hand or a fist in the air?
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 03, 2017, 08:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
JRut you can't appeal to HS mechanics in one post and then dismiss them on the next because "my state doesn't follow them exactly". You said NFHS mechanics don't have the Lead count, which is untrue. I don't give a crap about what your state does.
Actually I find it funny that people act like the NF makes all these decisions as ultimately what you do as an official. If the NF makes an official change, your state might and has in the past rejected such a change. Either way if the NF changes this or not, it is not much sweat off my back. I just reject the idea that the NBA or pros are so much better mechanically and then suggesting that a game that has different rule and even styles of play is automatically appropriate for our level.

I also said what mostly high school does and I really do not care what the book says because it does not seem to be taught that way. Now you can argue, but I have seen many state's literature or trainings where no such backing of that states. And if you have been paying attention to this site or me, many states have their own ideas of what they ultimately do. So even if the NF changes tomorrow, there are places that are going to do whatever they want to do. If you do not believe me, do a search about NF mechanics on this site of the variations from everything to the shirt those wear to if we go table side on certain mechanics. So I do not give a crap what you want the NF to do. It appears they do not care either based on history.

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Last edited by JRutledge; Wed May 03, 2017 at 08:45pm.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 03, 2017, 08:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
JRut you can't appeal to HS mechanics in one post and then dismiss them on the next because "my state doesn't follow them exactly". You said NFHS mechanics don't have the Lead count, which is untrue. I don't give a crap about what your state does.

For what it's worth, we count as the L.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2017, 08:01am
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Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
...

For example the NFHS says for Lead to watch rebounding when the Trail has a 3-point shooter in the corner. The NBA does the opposite, has the Lead official referee the 3-point shooter in the corner and tells Trail to close down and referee post rebounding action. This makes perfect sense for a bunch of reasons: the Lead is closer to the 3-point shooter and the Trail official naturally has a better big-picture possession-consequence view on rebounding action.

....

I'm not at all in agreement that this is better coverage of the post and corner. The Trail is often stacked for rebounding action on his side of the court, while the Lead is able to see between opponents who are positioning for the rebound. It also leaves the Lead without a clue about secondary defenders should A1 decide to drive from the corner to the basket.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2017, 10:00am
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SO my two cents (keeping in mind they are Canadian so after the exchange rate, bank fees and FIBA rules doesn't equate to much)

Only reasons to make changes to rules:

- Adapting rules or guidelines to improve game for developmental purposes. ie. THese measurements, timing issues, or rules are better for development of the game at this age/stage of development.

- Aligning rule sets so from top to bottom in the sport there is less confusion or misconception about rules.

- As the game evolves tactics/players/interpretations change. Rules need to evolve along with them to deal with changes to allow spirit of the rule to stay relative to letter of the rule.

- Clarification. If language, interp, or application all don't align making changes so all those things can be clearer in intent, meaning and application is helpful.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2017, 11:03am
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I See Two Problems ...

Dyslexic officials. Dyslexic scorekeepers.

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Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef View Post
I'm not sure I'm smart enough to use two hands!!
It has nothing to do with being smart, or intelligent.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2017, 11:11am
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Blame Freddy ...

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Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Changes
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 04, 2017, 11:12am
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Preaching To The Choir ...

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Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
please don't give us any POE's without an associated rule change.
Amen.
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