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  #61 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 28, 2017, 03:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I believe that this controversial call could have been avoided if the L was closed down or even rotated over to the ball side. Freeze the video at 5 seconds when the wing has the ball and notice how far away the L is. When the wing caught the ball, the L should have rotated to the ball side. The play would have been officiated much better.
Play happens too quickly for the lead to initiate a rotation. Could the Lead have closed down a bit more? Sure...wouldn't have changed his look at the play. Lead should lay off above the rim play opposite...he has to look through the basket and backboard. Should focus on if defender is grounded vs not....and A to B movement by defender.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 28, 2017, 07:57am
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Originally Posted by ODog View Post
You misread my post. I did not say the defender knocked the ball out of the shooter's hands. He didn't. No additional angle necessary. Not in dispute. Shooter drops it of his own volition and without assistance.

BUT the defender IS the first to touch it after the drop, which negates it being a dribble. (That part could require a better angle, but Monk from UK touching it first is how I'm seeing it. And apparently the officials too ... unless they were just caught off guard by the goofy play, which happens to all of us). Not until the offensive player touches the ball again after the drop is this technically "a dribble."

And if that never happened, this is nothing, and perhaps the reason there was no whistle.

Until the offensive player recovers that ball, it's just a horrible "pass," or nothing.
Basically what he has done is start a dribble. You cannot move your pivot before starting a dribble. Whether the ball is touched is not necessarily relevant to this play if his intent was to start a dribble. The only issue that would have been relevant if during the jump the ball was knocked out of his hand. Now I am not so sure that took place here. And I was also referencing that this has taken place several times just this tournament where it was not properly called. Some of it might have been angle or the official might have not been sure if it was done on purpose and the defender dislodged the ball.

And even a "pass" can be illegal if you dribbled under the right circumstances. So be careful with that being the standard.

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  #63 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 28, 2017, 12:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ODog View Post
Ball does get knocked away by defender ... once it hits the floor. And yes, that does matter. Sure, Jackson would have recovered it, thus making it a travel (dribble started with pivot foot off the floor), but Monk saved him from that by poking the ball away. Good patient whistle in no-calling this.

The dropping of the ball is nothing. It's what happens next.
Yes, player jumped in the air and released ball to floor..all legal. Then, defender touches ball first. No travel on all that however.....looks like a technical travel when he initially receives the pass.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 28, 2017, 01:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Yes, player jumped in the air and released ball to floor..all legal. Then, defender touches ball first. No travel on all that however.....looks like a technical travel when he initially receives the pass.
The problem lies in the definition of dribble, which begins with the release of the ball. That is what a couple of posters are referring to as by rule. By the language of the rule, if the ball was released as a dribble, he illegally began a dribble after lifting his pivot foot and what comes after doesn't change that.

Quote:
Section 13. Dribble
Art. 1. A dribble is ball movement caused by a player in control who bats,
pushes or taps the ball to the playing court once or several times.
Art. 2. The dribble may be started by pushing, throwing, tapping or batting
the ball to the playing court.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 28, 2017, 01:55pm
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Originally Posted by so cal lurker View Post
if the ball was released as a dribble, he illegally began a dribble after lifting his pivot foot and what comes after doesn't change that.
See what you are saying but don't quite agree. I feel that what comes after does determine everything. It can't be considered a dribble unless he is first to touch the ball after releasing it and it hitting the floor. Since defender was first to touch ball after it was released, there is nothing illegal about this play. We have all seen the case where a player jumps to shoot, is going to get blocked, and releases the ball to the floor as a dribble, as it comes back to his possession. Classic travel case. (always good entertainment to have this happen in a heated pick-up game and watch the argument unfold)
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 28, 2017, 02:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
See what you are saying but don't quite agree. I feel that what comes after does determine everything. It can't be considered a dribble unless he is first to touch the ball after releasing it and it hitting the floor. Since defender was first to touch ball after it was released, there is nothing illegal about this play. We have all seen the case where a player jumps to shoot, is going to get blocked, and releases the ball to the floor as a dribble, as it comes back to his possession. Classic travel case. (always good entertainment to have this happen in a heated pick-up game and watch the argument unfold)
It is either a dribble the moment it leaves the player's hands or it isn't. Where it goes next really isn't relevant. If it goes to another player, it sometimes just becomes an interrupted dribble. Sometimes, it is unclear whether the player was passing to a nearby player but if there is no teammate in the area where the ball is released, it is, by definition a dribble when the player deliberately releases the ball to the floor and not towards another player. Waiting for another player to come get the ball doesn't make it a pass. If they wanted it to be a pass, they'd throw it towards someone, not to the floor at their feet.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Tue Mar 28, 2017 at 02:47pm.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 28, 2017, 03:43pm
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The Road Not Taken ...

A reference to Robert Frost on the Forum. Is this a first?

Starting a dribble ... illegal dribble ... Wait to see what happens next ... Don't have to wait to see what happens next ...

We've been down this road before. Same road. Same fork. It hasn't changed.

Maybe we can get Theresia Wynns to walk down this path with us. She'll know the right way.

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Last edited by BillyMac; Tue Mar 28, 2017 at 03:47pm.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 28, 2017, 04:13pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
It is either a dribble the moment it leaves the player's hands or it isn't. Where it goes next really isn't relevant. If it goes to another player, it sometimes just becomes an interrupted dribble. Sometimes, it is unclear whether the player was passing to a nearby player but if there is no teammate in the area where the ball is released, it is, by definition a dribble when the player deliberately releases the ball to the floor and not towards another player. Waiting for another player to come get the ball doesn't make it a pass. If they wanted it to be a pass, they'd throw it towards someone, not to the floor at their feet.
Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Your first statement is simply false. Your own examples even illustrate that idea. Below are some more:

If A1 bounces the ball to A2, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands.

When A1 bounces the ball to himself, it is a dribble when A1 touches the ball, not when A1 releases the ball.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a dribble when A2 returns IB and touches(by continuing to dribble) the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

There are also cases (one previously mentioned) that support all of this.

If an official calls traveling any time a player, with the ball in the air, releases it to the floor, and does not touch the ball, that would be flat out wrong/incorrect.

Imagine this scenario: Team A is up by 3 points with 5 seconds to go and is inbounding on the endline opposite their goal. Team A has to go the full length of the court. All 10 players are in the BC of Team A with Team B applying strong, full court pressure. A1 throws an inbound pass towards A2, somewhat high in the air. A2 jumps, gets control of the ball in the air, and instinctively, while still in the air, heaves the ball down court, disallowing B1 the chance to foul A2 or steal the ball, and knowing the time will expire. The ball, in the air, finally hits in Team A's FC, with 2 seconds to go. You call travel. Team A coach comes unglued, his head literally pops off, and every atom in his body simultaneously combusts (nice visual huh?). You rush over and explain to the flames, that once the ball left A2's hands, where the ball went next was not relevant. You go on to say that since there were no teammates in the vicinity of the ball, it had to have been a dribble by definition, ergo, it is illegal to start a dribble without a pivot foot, and traveling is a result. Video of play goes viral along with official defending himself ad nauseam on officiating.com

Extreme example, I know but I felt it illustrated everything the best.

Hey wait, I didn't mean to respond to Camron. Oh no! Broke my own rule!

And I probably have another fine coming for too many words. It took me so long, I did not even get a chance to see Billy's response! Ugh! Would have saved me!
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Last edited by bucky; Tue Mar 28, 2017 at 04:15pm.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 28, 2017, 06:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Your first statement is simply false. Your own examples even illustrate that idea. Below are some more:

If A1 bounces the ball to A2, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands.

When A1 bounces the ball to himself, it is a dribble when A1 touches the ball, not when A1 releases the ball.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a dribble when A2 returns IB and touches(by continuing to dribble) the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

There are also cases (one previously mentioned) that support all of this.

If an official calls traveling any time a player, with the ball in the air, releases it to the floor, and does not touch the ball, that would be flat out wrong/incorrect.

Imagine this scenario: Team A is up by 3 points with 5 seconds to go and is inbounding on the endline opposite their goal. Team A has to go the full length of the court. All 10 players are in the BC of Team A with Team B applying strong, full court pressure. A1 throws an inbound pass towards A2, somewhat high in the air. A2 jumps, gets control of the ball in the air, and instinctively, while still in the air, heaves the ball down court, disallowing B1 the chance to foul A2 or steal the ball, and knowing the time will expire. The ball, in the air, finally hits in Team A's FC, with 2 seconds to go. You call travel. Team A coach comes unglued, his head literally pops off, and every atom in his body simultaneously combusts (nice visual huh?). You rush over and explain to the flames, that once the ball left A2's hands, where the ball went next was not relevant. You go on to say that since there were no teammates in the vicinity of the ball, it had to have been a dribble by definition, ergo, it is illegal to start a dribble without a pivot foot, and traveling is a result. Video of play goes viral along with official defending himself ad nauseam on officiating.com

Extreme example, I know but I felt it illustrated everything the best.

Hey wait, I didn't mean to respond to Camron. Oh no! Broke my own rule!

And I probably have another fine coming for too many words. It took me so long, I did not even get a chance to see Billy's response! Ugh! Would have saved me!
All scenarios aside, the rule defines a dribble as a ball being pushed to the floor. Nothing about the dribble rule depends on what it touches next.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 29, 2017, 07:49am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
There are also cases (one previously mentioned) that support all of this.
Please point us to these cases.

Quote:
A2 ... heaves the ball down court... You go on to say that since there were no teammates in the vicinity of the ball, it had to have been a dribble by definition,
This is not an extreme example... it's a false example. Go re-read the definition of DRIBBLE and explain how throwing the ball in this manner could possibly be construed as directing the ball toward the ground.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 29, 2017, 10:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
Please point us to these cases.
.
4.15.4C, 4.44.3(A), 9.5 all mention A1 being first to touch ball…
As Billy said, we have been down this road before. I have reconciled it by saying if what the player does looks and is a "dribble"…a straight push down of the ball right next to him…then I don't have to wait to see if he touches it first. That was a "dribble' that ive seen 8 gabillion times before. violation.

However, there are times when I do have to wait to see what happens next, who touches it, to determine if something was a dribble. I do not and never agree that you always determine dribble or pass at the moment something leaves players hand. Example, I end a dribble. Toss the ball toward Camron. It bounces but then he runs away. I then go touch ball first. That is double dribble because i touched it first. if the ball just sat there it would be nothing.

If I havnt dribbled yet and throw the same pass and then run over to get it it is also a dribble. Just because it was thrown towards Camron doesn't make it a pass by rule. It looked like one out of my hand but it isn't one by rule. I can go recover it legally because it was considered a dribble.

Anyway, i did not watch this video. if a player jumps up and on way down pushes ball straight to floor(a dribble we've all seen forever) i think we can call the violation without him being first to touch. If he simply lets go of the ball i'm going to wait to see what happens next.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 29, 2017, 05:38pm
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Let's Go To The Videotape ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
4.15.4C, 4.44.3(A), 9.5 all mention A1 being first to touch ball…
4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

9.5 SITUATION: A1 dribbles and comes to a stop after which he/she throws the
ball against: (a) his/her own backboard; (b) the opponent’s backboard; or (c) an
official and catches the ball after each. RULING: Legal in (a); a team’s own backboard
is considered part of that team’s “equipment” and may be used. In (b) and
(c), A1 has violated; throwing the ball against an opponent’s backboard or an official
constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is first to touch the ball after it
strikes the official or the board. (4-4-5; 4-15-1, 2; Fundamental 19)
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 29, 2017, 05:44pm
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Please. Put 4.44.3A(d) up. That's most similar. Thx

Last edited by BigCat; Wed Mar 29, 2017 at 05:47pm. Reason: Added a "please."
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 29, 2017, 11:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD Longhorn View Post
This is not an extreme example... it's a false example. Go re-read the definition of DRIBBLE and explain how throwing the ball in this manner could possibly be construed as directing the ball toward the ground.
Why would I? I did not claim anything, Camron did.

"It is either a dribble the moment it leaves the player's hands or it isn't. Where it goes next really isn't relevant. If it goes to another player, it sometimes just becomes an interrupted dribble. Sometimes, it is unclear whether the player was passing to a nearby player but if there is no teammate in the area where the ball is released, it is, by definition a dribble when the player deliberately releases the ball to the floor and not towards another player. Waiting for another player to come get the ball doesn't make it a pass. If they wanted it to be a pass, they'd throw it towards someone, not to the floor at their feet.

I guarantee that no official on the planet would call a travel for my scenario.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 30, 2017, 10:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Your first statement is simply false. Your own examples even illustrate that idea. Below are some more:

If A1 bounces the ball to A2, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands.

When A1 bounces the ball to himself, it is a dribble when A1 touches the ball, not when A1 releases the ball.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a pass when A2 touches the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

If A1, in the air falling OOB, blindly throws the ball IB, it is a dribble when A2 returns IB and touches(by continuing to dribble) the ball, not when the ball leaves A1's hands on the save.

There are also cases (one previously mentioned) that support all of this.

If an official calls traveling any time a player, with the ball in the air, releases it to the floor, and does not touch the ball, that would be flat out wrong/incorrect.

Imagine this scenario: Team A is up by 3 points with 5 seconds to go and is inbounding on the endline opposite their goal. Team A has to go the full length of the court. All 10 players are in the BC of Team A with Team B applying strong, full court pressure. A1 throws an inbound pass towards A2, somewhat high in the air. A2 jumps, gets control of the ball in the air, and instinctively, while still in the air, heaves the ball down court, disallowing B1 the chance to foul A2 or steal the ball, and knowing the time will expire. The ball, in the air, finally hits in Team A's FC, with 2 seconds to go. You call travel. Team A coach comes unglued, his head literally pops off, and every atom in his body simultaneously combusts (nice visual huh?). You rush over and explain to the flames, that once the ball left A2's hands, where the ball went next was not relevant. You go on to say that since there were no teammates in the vicinity of the ball, it had to have been a dribble by definition, ergo, it is illegal to start a dribble without a pivot foot, and traveling is a result. Video of play goes viral along with official defending himself ad nauseam on officiating.com

Extreme example, I know but I felt it illustrated everything the best.

Hey wait, I didn't mean to respond to Camron. Oh no! Broke my own rule!

And I probably have another fine coming for too many words. It took me so long, I did not even get a chance to see Billy's response! Ugh! Would have saved me!
Bucky, I agree with you as you can see in my post above that there are times we have to wait to see what happens next to see if something is a dribble or pass.
However, i want to point out that your scenario above would not be travel even if the player pushed the ball down right next to him and kept dribbling. A player has to have a foot down before we start looking at the starting dribble with pivot foot off floor stuff. A player who catches ball in air can throw ball down immediately…while still in air…land and continue dribbling. 7.1.1D is the play where A1 jumps in air as ball going out of bounds. he grabs it and throws it back inbounds, lands and then comes in to grab it or continue dribbling. legal.

i know what you are saying but i wanted to point out that the "dribble starting with pivot off floor" language doesn't apply to a player who catches ball in air and lets go of it while still in air.

Last edited by BigCat; Thu Mar 30, 2017 at 10:15am.
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