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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 08:49am
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Coaches who are also Officials

Just wondering if my experience with coaches who are also officials is typical.

Just finished my 2nd year. In my 2nd Varsity game, one head coach had been my partner for 4 MS travel games. Before the game he told me that his girls are aggressive, and when they drive the lane and there is contact, he wants the foul called. First half he got into a long discussion about a block/charge call with my partner, which prompted my partner to tell me at halftime that he couldn’t believe the coach was also an official. Close game at halftime, his team gets blown out in the 2nd half. Winning team passing the ball along the perimeter, killing the clock, (4 minutes to go, 30 point margin) and the coach yells at me for missing a travel. I admit sometimes I struggle with identifying the pivot foot, I am certainly working on it. (after game partner said it was close, but a travel). After the game, coach finds us in the hall, and begins yelling at me that I am a JV official, that I missed 4 travels, and he is going to send the video to the assignor. I did not engage him. Both my partner and the AD try to calm the coach down. That night I emailed a full explanation to my assignor.

2 weeks later, I went to watch his team in their first round State playoff game. Same type of game, tied at halftime, his team loses by 28. Three-man crew, all experienced guys. He was complaining all game. During a 3rd quarter time-out, he told his team “Don’t worry girls, it’s 8 against 5 out there”. With about 4 minutes to go, he gets in an official’s face and screams “You’re Horrible!”, twice. That earned him a T. Saddest part was his team clapping for him as he returned to the bench.

Then last week I did a 6th grade girls travel game – one coach was a partner from 2 months ago. I was L, in good position to see no contact on a missed lay-up. Shooter goes down hard – not injured, but stays down for a while. Coach screaming for a foul (from 50 feet away) “If my player is on the floor, there HAS to be a foul”. (As an official, how can she possibly think that?) Girls that age are on the floor all the time, of their own doing.

So….typical, or atypical?
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 08:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
... Before the game he told me that his girls are aggressive, and when they drive the lane and there is contact, he wants the foul called. ...
My response would have been "Don't tell me how to officiate, and I won't tell you how to coach."

I have a low tolerance for a-holes, especially presumptuous a-holes.
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 09:08am
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In my experience if a coach is mostly a referee they are awesome referees. If they are mostly a coach with some referee experience they are horrible coaches and referees.

They are just to competitive to truly embrace a stance of seeing where you are what you are calling and understanding we cant be perfect. If he tells you he refereed or does he is saying he wants you to make calls that help him and the way his girls play to gain an advantage. Once they do this I pretty much know I have to call my game, take care of business and ignore him.

Basketball is hard to referee. You are here because you care and are trying to get better. He is there to win. And no one should ever give you that level of crap.

Div 1 Final four guy reminds me every year. If he shows you who he is you better believe him.

Only coach I ever listen to is the one who asks respectful questions. The rest it treat as a guy who wants to win and will say and do anything to win.

When a coach tells me this will happen and you better call it. I say I will referee how I have been trained and I need you to coach your kids not my crew. Then he knows that manipulation attempted failed and I am just going to work my game and not think about him at all.

I wouldnt let a coach yell at you, ever. First chance you get tell him you cant be yelling at me. If you want to ask me a question when I am close that is great. No more yelling. If he doesnt know he is getting a T for yelling then he will find out really fast.

Great job not engaging the coach after the game. Whenever you have a coach like that find a safe place away from him after the game and write a report that he sought you out. Horrible what these coaches do to newer officials. We dont want you quitting over this kind of behavior. Stick at it man.

That last coach... we are americans. We blame everyone and take no accountability. You worked hard and know there was no contact. Coach I am right there. She lost her balance no one make contact with her.

Sounds like you are already doing well as an official. Dont be discouraged and keep coming here. I have learned a lot over the years.
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 09:13am
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With more experience I will be ready with an appropriate reply to pregame comments like that - I just ignored it this time.
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 09:17am
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If they were such good coaches they would not be officiating. If they were such good officials they would not be coaching.

I do not care for these individuals who try to tell you what they did in officiating. Unless I know who you are and know what you do, then you must not have been that great.

Ignore these fools who try to tell you how much they have officiated anything.

Peace
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 09:18am
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BigT, thanks for the encouragement! Don't worry, no thoughts of quitting at all, I enjoy it too much - and feeling way more confident now than during my rookie year.
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 09:27am
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Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
With more experience I will be ready with an appropriate reply to pregame comments like that - I just ignored it this time.
I would not use the response that BNR used. (It might work for him; it wouldn't work for me).

I'd say something like, "we'll judge the contact on both ends" or "since you're an official you know that not all contact is a foul".

Sometimes, if it gets more protracted, I suggest bringing the other coach in so we are all on the same page.
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 09:32am
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
My response would have been "Don't tell me how to officiate, and I won't tell you how to coach."
Add this to the end of your response: "although someone should".
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 09:33am
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I would not use the response that BNR used. (It might work for him; it wouldn't work for me).

I'd say something like, "we'll judge the contact on both ends" or "since you're an official you know that not all contact is a foul".

Sometimes, if it gets more protracted, I suggest bringing the other coach in so we are all on the same page.
BNR is a bigger guy with color and you are not. A lot of things work for him that would not work for you or me. After all that is why most of this advice about anything does not apply to everyone and should not. That is why I do not give the "stop sign" it often does not work at all. Well unless I want to give a Technical foul as a guarantee.

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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 09:40am
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Originally Posted by Mark Padgett View Post
Add this to the end of your response: "although someone should".
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 09:51am
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Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
With more experience I will be ready with an appropriate reply to pregame comments like that - I just ignored it this time.
That's your best approach.

My experience is that if they are coaches who also officiate, they can be a pain. If they are officials who also coach, they are great (with a few exceptions). There are some high level local officials (varsity state tournament, and college) who are a pleasure to work for when they coach (primarily middle school and JV).

The main difference: even though you know they officiate, and they know you by name, they never, ever, try to use that to their advantage. They ask better questions, but that's about it.

Back to your OP: You did right by emailing your assigner about his stuff, and don't worry about missing a travel now and then. Sure, work on the pivot foot, but not to the point where it's your best call. You're better off at this point learning to differentiate between fouls and incidental contact. "Close but a travel" is not necessarily something you need to be calling, and if it needed called, your partner should have got it if he saw it.

His "8-5" comment gets an easy T if I hear it.

Your second coach screaming for a foul is likely going to get a T from me in a ms game. If not, I've tuned her out and she'll be lucky if I hear "time out" when she needs it.
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 10:01am
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Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Before the game he told me that his girls are aggressive, and when they drive the lane and there is contact, he wants the foul called.
He wouldn't have gotten half this out of his mouth with me.

"I want a million dollars, coach. Neither of us are probably going to get what he wants."
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 10:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I would not use the response that BNR used. (It might work for him; it wouldn't work for me).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
BNR is a bigger guy with color and you are not.A lot of things work for him that would not work for you or me. After all that is why most of this advice about anything does not apply to everyone and should not. That is why I do not give the "stop sign" it often does not work at all. Well unless I want to give a Technical foul as a guarantee.

Peace
For new officials (of any sport): Much wisdom above. Never listen to the guy with "the" answer for managing games/coaches/players. There are a lot of different tools. All officials need to find the ones that work for them.

(I'm a soccer referee. I see referees do things very effectively that I know won't work for me -- but even the tools that don't work can be learning points on how to adjust tools that I do use.)
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 10:59am
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Was doing a VB game this year and home team coach does officiate some on the weekend (kids/travel/high school rec stuff)...

1Q my first whistle of the game was on a drive originating from the C....I'm the lead see the contact, give partner first crack and then I put a whistle on it. It was late, probably later than it should have been, but it was the right call.

I go over the report and coach isn't pleased. I admit it was late, but it was the right call. Coach then proceeds to explain "I ref and the rule book says you don't call a foul that late."

I'm of the school that if you officiate, especially at a high level, you should know better than bark and chirp at an official as it can be a difficult game to call. However, thinking a coaches mindset will change because they officiate sometimes doesn't change the end result of their behavior....
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Old Thu Mar 16, 2017, 11:11am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Just wondering if my experience with coaches who are also officials is typical.

Just finished my 2nd year. In my 2nd Varsity game, one head coach had been my partner for 4 MS travel games. Before the game he told me that his girls are aggressive, and when they drive the lane and there is contact, he wants the foul called.
One follow up question: were you talking to him alone, or was the other coach present? Pregame, I never recommend having a conversation with either coach when the other isn't present. Other than my pregame coach's meeting, I don't say anything to coaches before tipoff.
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