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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 10:08pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
OK, but if the ball was contacted first and the follow through involved some arm contact, in my world that is not a foul. That is expected on some level. And if there is some torso contact, then so be it as well. If he used all that arm contact and body contact to get the block, different story.

Peace
Contacting the ball first, in and of itself, gives one the right to do......nothing. By watching this video, it is not a certainty that there was any contact with the ball. (I think there was some) But what is certain is that after the ball contact, there was substantial contact with both the arm and the body which stopped any chance he had of making the shot.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 10:11pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
DJ had a good look and passed. That's good enough for me.
That's actually good enough for me, too. If I'd had the look he had, I might have made the same call. But this video screams foul to me.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 10:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Contacting the ball first, in and of itself, gives one the right to do......nothing. By watching this video, it is not a certainty that there was any contact with the ball. (I think there was some) But what is certain is that after the ball contact, there was substantial contact with both the arm and the body which stopped any chance he had of making the shot.


Whether the ball is contacted first means a lot at this level. You saying otherwise doesn't change that. It's pretty clear when I watch NCAA D1 games.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 10:41pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Whether the ball is contacted first means a lot at this level. You saying otherwise doesn't change that. It's pretty clear when I watch NCAA D1 games.

But this is a philosophy, and not a rule, yes?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 10:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Whether the ball is contacted first means a lot at this level. You saying otherwise doesn't change that. It's pretty clear when I watch NCAA D1 games.
That is the case here in high school games. That is the case in small college games. That is the case if you work for the right position.

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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
But this is a philosophy, and not a rule, yes?
Well what rule says otherwise?

I can look at the incidental contact rule and clearly judge that the block did not prevent the shooter from doing normal movements.

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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 11:00pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
That is the case here in high school games. That is the case in small college games. That is the case if you work for the right position.







Well what rule says otherwise?



I can look at the incidental contact rule and clearly judge that the block did not prevent the shooter from doing normal movements.



Peace


It's the case here in good HS hoops too. I only referenced NCAAM in the post cause that's the level the video is from.

If a HS player gets ball first it makes a lot incidental.....as long as the defender doesn't annihilate the airborne shooter in the process.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 11:10pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
It's the case here in good HS hoops too. I only referenced NCAAM in the post cause that's the level the video is from.
Oh I know. But that was for the benefit of those that try to act like high school is some pure and different level. I work for an assignor that assigns me both high school and college games. He is the head clinician in the state and told us flat out what we are to do on a blocked shot attempt. He told us "Assume they will block the shot" in our pre-weekend meeting. That was said with the IHSA Administrator in that meeting. That is all I needed to hear.

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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
If a HS player gets ball first it makes a lot incidental.....as long as the defender doesn't annihilate the airborne shooter in the process.
I do not totally disagree, but a lot of times the contact with the ball is going to knock a player off balance and any contact that took place is not going to be the reason the player fell, the taking your momentum out of the air while blocking the ball will. Just like someone that tries to dunk and hits the rim instead.

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 11:13pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Oh I know. But that was for the benefit of those that try to act like high school is some pure and different level. I work for an assignor that assigns me both high school and college games. He is the head clinician in the state and told us flat out what we are to do on a blocked shot attempt. He told us "Assume they will block the shot" in our pre-weekend meeting. That was said with the IHSA Administrator in that meeting. That is all I needed to hear.







I do not totally disagree, but a lot of times the contact with the ball is going to knock a player off balance and any contact that took place is not going to be the reason the player fell, the taking your momentum out of the air while blocking the ball will. Just like someone that tries to dunk and hits the rim instead.



Peace


I'm talking more about the out of balance defender that gets ball and then crushes the shooter.....but those pretty much call themselves.

All I know is that when someone has a clean block up top and tries to sell "body down low" It's usually a weak call.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 11:14pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
If a HS player gets ball first it makes a lot incidental.....as long as the defender doesn't annihilate the airborne shooter in the process.

Agreed, if he gets ball first. If he cleanly swats the ball into the wall followed by minimal contact of any kind, nobody wants a foul there, except the team taking the shot. But if the defender grazes the ball with a fingertip and then follow through with contact that draws blood, what do you have then? Obviously the OP is somewhere in between. To me, with the benefit of the replay, this meets the definition of a foul.

As far as rule vs. philosophy, I'm just saying there is no provision which says:

If the defender contacts the ball first, any subsequent contact shall be ruled incidental.

I call it the roughing the kicker philosophy.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 11:18pm
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There's no provision that says it's a foul, either. It's all judgment on advantage / disadvantage.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 11:32pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Agreed, if he gets ball first. If he cleanly swats the ball into the wall followed by minimal contact of any kind, nobody wants a foul there, except the team taking the shot. But if the defender grazes the ball with a fingertip and then follow through with contact that draws blood, what do you have then? Obviously the OP is somewhere in between. To me, with the benefit of the replay, this meets the definition of a foul.

As far as rule vs. philosophy, I'm just saying there is no provision which says:

If the defender contacts the ball first, any subsequent contact shall be ruled incidental.

I call it the roughing the kicker philosophy.
Well if you make contact with the ball in normal action in blocking a kick you do not call any foul for RTK anyway.

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 11:34pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Well if you make contact with the ball in normal action in blocking a kick you do not call any foul for RTK anyway.

Peace
That was the point. But that is the rule in football, isn't it?
There is no such rule in basketball.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 11:37pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
That was the point. But that is the rule in football, isn't it?
There is no such rule in basketball.
And there is no such rule that says all contact is a foul. Contact can be severe and not be a foul. That is in basketball rules, not football rules.

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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 26, 2017, 11:40pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
And there is no such rule that says all contact is a foul. Contact can be severe and not be a foul.

Contact can be severe and not be a foul. Conversely, contact can be minimal and be a foul, and touching the ball is coincidental to both.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 27, 2017, 12:17am
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Contact can be severe and not be a foul. Conversely, contact can be minimal and be a foul, and touching the ball is coincidental to both.
Yes, I agree. And in this case I do not have a foul. I have a good block. And I looked at this play enough to not change my mind.

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