Hard foul, intentional, flagrant ? (HS)

[illinoisbluezeb]

I could even see this being a held ball. Going to the AP.
Can't tell if there was body contact, there was no intentional or malicious foul that I could see.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by illinoisbluezeb

I could even see this being a held ball. Going to the AP.
Can't tell if there was body contact, there was no intentional or malicious foul that I could see.

It can't be a held ball -- the ball came out before the player returned to the floor.

[Kansas Ref]

This play is your garden variety "hard fall with contact" which was caused by the downward counter-force of the defender's blocked shot action on an airborne shooter. We see such defensive plays on a regular basis; I saw no rationale for upgrading to an IF. Also, now, in other instances there is a "hard fall" and no contact on airborne shooter is even made---I have seen this occur when shooters try to make fairly acrobatic moves in the air and fall down hard after the counter-force of the block--I had "nothing" in such cases--despite a body splayed on the floor.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

It can't be a held ball -- the ball came out before the player returned to the floor.

It could if all the contact is with the ball and prevents a shooter from releasing the ball.

Peace

[Welpe]

From this angle, I don't have anything more than a regular personal foul.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It could if all the contact is with the ball and prevents a shooter from releasing the ball.

Peace

I agree. Rich i wasn't sure what you meant when you said it couldn't be a jump ball because the ball came out before he hit the floor. If it prevents the shooter from "throwing" the ball or "releasing it on a try" i think the rule says..its a held ball. Just because it came out here before the kid hit the floor doesn't prevent it from being a held ball...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It could if all the contact is with the ball and prevents a shooter from releasing the ball.

Peace

Ugh.

Let me get this straight -- a shooter goes up, a player puts his hands on the ball, and the ball clearly comes out before the shooter returns to the floor. You're even considering a held ball in this scenario?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

Ugh.

Let me get this straight -- a shooter goes up, a player puts his hands on the ball, and the ball clearly comes out before the shooter returns to the floor. You're even considering a held ball in this scenario?

I would consider a held ball in this play. the fact that the ball came out eventually, just prior to kid hitting floor doesn't mean i won't consider it. once kid is in air I'm looking to see the contact with the ball, how long and the effect it has on the offensive player. The ball coming loose before a player hits the ground has never been a consideration for me. Now, if a kid can only jump 2 inches the contact and ball coming loose before he hits the ground is going to be quick and likely not a held ball. i'll make that judgment up top though not really based on when he hit the floor.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

Ugh.

Let me get this straight -- a shooter goes up, a player puts his hands on the ball, and the ball clearly comes out before the shooter returns to the floor. You're even considering a held ball in this scenario?

If the ball is stopped from release at the top, yes. It would only not be if the ball is clearly knocked out of the hand.

Also there is a play in the Simplified and Illustrated Book. Also 4.25.2 clearly states what this is as well.



Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by hoopologist

Here I'm posting a play from a recent HS BV game in Seattle. I realize the video makes it difficult to determine the nature or degree of the foul. But I'm wondering about the nuances differentiating a tough, hard-nosed foul from an intentional or flagrant.

Everybody here agrees that unless there's something that is not shown in the video, this is NOT an intentional foul -- so what did the officials on the court decide?

[hoopologist]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Everybody here agrees that unless there's something that is not shown in the video, this is NOT an intentional foul -- so what did the officials on the court decide?

For what it's worth, after a brief (2 minute) confab, the crew upgraded this to an IF. And, if I recall correctly, it was the Trail official who made the call. Perhaps he's assigned to do so or perhaps he took over the call. I do not know.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by hoopologist

For what it's worth, after a brief (2 minute) confab, the crew upgraded this to an IF. And, if I recall correctly, it was the Trail official who made the call. Perhaps he's assigned to do so or perhaps he took over the call. I do not know.

Sometimes after a discussion, the one with a more dominant personality just makes the call even if they all agree.

[ronny mulkey]

I think hoopologist has posed a very good question: is excessive contact based on how hard the player hits the floor or is it how hard the player gets hit?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by hoopologist

Hard foul ... and more?

It's close. Excessive contact? Maybe? It's close.

4-19-3: An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that may or may
not be premeditated and is not based solely on the severity of the act. Intentional
fouls include, but are not limited to:
d. Excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball.

NFHS Case 4.19.3 Sit B: A1 drives to the basket with B1 in pursuit. As A1 begins the act of shooting, B1 gets a hand on the ball from behind and the subsequent contact takes A1 forcefully to the floor and out of bounds."
"RULING: An intentional foul shall be charged when the contact is judged to be excessive, even though the opponent is playing the ball. (4-11)

Note: Here in my little corner of Connecticut, if this is deemed to be an excessive contact intentional foul, we're allowed to use this signal (below) after the intentional foul signal, which I don't believe is approved by either the NFHS, or IAABO.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

It's close. Excessive contact? Maybe? It's close.

4-19-3: An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul that may or may
not be premeditated and is not based solely on the severity of the act. Intentional
fouls include, but are not limited to:
d. Excessive contact with an opponent while playing the ball.

NFHS Case 4.19.3 Sit B: A1 drives to the basket with B1 in pursuit. As A1 begins the act of shooting, B1 gets a hand on the ball from behind and the subsequent contact takes A1 forcefully to the floor and out of bounds."
"RULING: An intentional foul shall be charged when the contact is judged to be excessive, even though the opponent is playing the ball. (4-11)

From this video it's no where near close Billy. At most he's trying to block a shot and catches wrist. Offense is in the air which is why he lands hard. Now if he hits wrist or all ball and follows through with body driving offense to floor you have something here.

If he pushes his legs sideways you have something here. Just not enough on this video.