Ejected From Tournament (Video)

[xyrph]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Perhaps I read it wrong. if I did, I apologize. Most of his other videos have been with his team in white, so I could have assumed inappropriately.

The BLACK team is our team in this clip. We were all very appreciative of the officials' quick and decisive actions.

But how is this for being sick to your stomach... the coach of the WHITE team was not happy with the decision and he said of the push, quote, "That's just basketball."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by xyrph

The BLACK team is our team in this clip. We were all very appreciative of the officials' quick and decisive actions.

But how is this for being sick to your stomach... the coach of the WHITE team was not happy with the decision and he said of the push, quote, "That's just basketball."

That coach is just hopeless. Might as well whack him.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Are we ejecting the defender because of how the player fell or because of how hard the player was pushed or both?



I am not convinced this is a slam dunk flagrant foul. Because if the player stayed somewhat on their feet are we calling anything more than an intentional?



Peace

Don't play the what if game with this stuff. Two handed shove like that is flagrant in this case. Doesn't mean it always is but in this case, yes, it is

[Adam]

Originally Posted by xyrph

The BLACK team is our team in this clip. We were all very appreciative of the officials' quick and decisive actions.

But how is this for being sick to your stomach... the coach of the WHITE team was not happy with the decision and he said of the push, quote, "That's just basketball."

1. It's not just basketball, it's the opposite of basketball.
2. The only way 11 shoots her free throws here is if her coach used a timeout to keep her in the game. By coming onto the court like that to check on her, that's no longer optional.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Don't play the what if game with this stuff. Two handed shove like that is flagrant in this case. Doesn't mean it always is but in this case, yes, it is

I had a 2 handed shove that I merely called intentional.

But that was in the half-court on a rebounded ball and there was little momentum involved. On a fast break, my call would've been different.

[Adam]

I've had one I called intentional. Same kid did it later that game and my partner called it flagrant. Mine could have gone either way, the second one was with more force on an even smaller player.

I'm also going to note the officials did not eject this kid from the tournament. Tournament officials must have done that, either through direct intervention or established rules.

[UNIgiantslayers]

We had a 2 handed shove in a game earlier this year in a BV game that I regret not being more stubborn that it should've been flagrant. It was the second time the kid had done something like that --he gave an light 2 handed shove the first time that didn't add much if anything to the kids momentum, and the second time the other kid went plowing into the bleachers behind the basket. I wanted to go flagrant, but my partners did not want to excuse a kid from a game for that. My argument was that it was the second time, and there was a real risk of injury. In fact, the kid who was pushed was out of the game the rest of the first half with rib area pain. We talked about it in the car on the way home, and they both agreed after I presented my case, but on the court I wasn't going to argue when two of the three don't want to upgrade. I tried to get video from both coaches to post here to get thoughts, but neither sent it.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by Moosie74

Absolutely. Especially in a youth/high school game. Full force into a structural wall, if that's my daughter I'd want her evaluated or to sit a few minutes.

I'd expect the same by any official. A coach shouldn't be concerned by anything but his/her players safety

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

As an official, it's not our job to diagnose any sort of injury unless there are visible symptoms. She got up almost right away and didn't show any signs of trauma. I'm not sure the concussion rules apply here.

I would leave the diagnosing to the parents and coaches in this situation.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Are we ejecting the defender because of how the player fell or because of how hard the player was pushed or both?

I am not convinced this is a slam dunk flagrant foul. Because if the player stayed somewhat on their feet are we calling anything more than an intentional?

Peace

I think you have a great point. I think the subsequent fall into a hard wall after being pushed in the back is enough for a flagrant, followed by disqualification.

I would have done the same in this situation. Who knows what that girl will do next if she isn't tossed now.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Please tell me what signs, symptoms, or behaviors consistent with a concussion the fouled player is exhibiting?
She quickly gets up on her own and walks over near her team bench.
I think that an official would be overstepping his authority as well as misapplying a rule to require that this player leave the game under 3-3-8.
3-3-6 is clear and obvious when the coach comes out onto the court. Just enforce what's clear. No need to reach here.

Actually, the concussion protocol varies from state to state. The OhioHSAA protocol is completely different from the MichiganHSAA protocol.

The MichiganHSAA protocol just calls for an official to have a trainer look at the player if the official thinks that the player has suffered a concussion and that is the limit of the officials involvement.

The OhioHSAA protocol says that an official who thinks a player has concussion like symptoms to have the player removed from the game immediately and once the decision makes that decision, that player cannot return to competition for the remainder of the day. The official also has a special form to complete and submit to the OhioHSAA.

It should be noted that the State of Ohio has a law that has been in effect for almost four years that requires anyone that officiates youth sports of any to have completed at least once every three years the NFHS or CDC online concussion course. That means that part of the OhioHSAA annual registration process requires the official to provide a copy of his valid NFHS or CDC certificate. The OhioHSAA keeps track of each officials certificate and if it expires during the school year and if an official's certificate expires during the school year and he does not provide the OhioHSAA with an up to date certificate he is automatically suspended and all officiating contracts are immediately null and void. The law also requires any out of state officials who come into Ohio to officiate/umpire youth tournaments during the summer must have a valid NFHS or CDC concussion certificate.

MTD, Sr.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Don't play the what if game with this stuff. Two handed shove like that is flagrant in this case. Doesn't mean it always is but in this case, yes, it is

I think it is an appropriate question. We always ask "what if" questions here. Because the contact was not a lot and was not that bad alone, but the result was bad for sure. I am just wondering if we change our minds if she never goes head first into the wall. And I am not so sure I would call a flagrant in that situation.

Peace

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

Last summer, soccer made a rule change that if a player is injured by a foul that results in a yellow or red card, the player can be treated without having to leave the field. To me, that would make sense as a BB rule for a player that is a victim of a flagrant foul.

They should absolutely implement this rule.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I think it is an appropriate question. We always ask "what if" questions here. Because the contact was not a lot and was not that bad alone, but the result was bad for sure. I am just wondering if we change our minds if she never goes head first into the wall. And I am not so sure I would call a flagrant in that situation.



Peace

In this case, this is a ridiculous argument. She was shoved into a wall. You cannot separate the cause and effect. They are one in the same in these types of things.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Actually, the concussion protocol varies from state to state. The OhioHSAA protocol is completely different from the MichiganHSAA protocol.

The MichiganHSAA protocol just calls for an official to have a trainer look at the player if the official thinks that the player has suffered a concussion and that is the limit of the officials involvement.

The OhioHSAA protocol says that an official who thinks a player has concussion like symptoms to have the player removed from the game immediately and once the decision makes that decision, that player cannot return to competition for the remainder of the day. The official also has a special form to complete and submit to the OhioHSAA.

It should be noted that the State of Ohio has a law that has been in effect for almost four years that requires anyone that officiates youth sports of any to have completed at least once every three years the NFHS or CDC online concussion course. That means that part of the OhioHSAA annual registration process requires the official to provide a copy of his valid NFHS or CDC certificate. The OhioHSAA keeps track of each officials certificate and if it expires during the school year and if an official's certificate expires during the school year and he does not provide the OhioHSAA with an up to date certificate he is automatically suspended and all officiating contracts are immediately null and void. The law also requires any out of state officials who come into Ohio to officiate/umpire youth tournaments during the summer must have a valid NFHS or CDC concussion certificate.

MTD, Sr.

1. That's the most insane law ever (ok, maybe it's tied). Expecting officials to be experts on concussions based on an online class is just stupid.

2. Both states may have different protocols, but they both still start at the same point: when the official think the player may have a concussion. In the OP video, there's nothing to indicate that. She didn't hit a hard unprotected wall, she hit the mat. Her hands cushioned the impact. She got right up.

She's still heading to the bench without a timeout.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

In this case, this is a ridiculous argument. She was shoved into a wall. You cannot separate the cause and effect. They are one in the same in these types of things.

Ridiculous? Well I have seen many plays that did not have the player go down that we have not had a flagrant foul. So if you disagree that is fine, but I think the actual contact with the player was minor. It does not take much to knock someone off their square for sure. And I have no issue with the call that was made here. But wondering if that matters. Now it would to me and I am just fine with the situation because sometimes there is no wall that close in these situations or it is further away. But again I have been doing this awhile to consider all the possibilities. If you don't, I have no issue with you, but for those that want to know and I know I am not the only one considering this if they watch this video, you have to have something to tell them if the question the severity of hitting the wall. Been doing this for some time with video and people tend to ask for other possibilities.

Peace